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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:33
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logic_error: your chart and my math both make the approach to double population look like a gradual one, but remember that the game works in discrete quantities, and when you're pop booming, a surplus of just 2 nutrients (which can be arbitrarily smaller than N) is enough to increase the base population. Thus, you approach 2N at a rate of 1 per turn, except for the last pop point, which requires growing on 1 surplus nutrient.
In other words, the time from N to 1.5N is longer than the time from 1.5N to 1.75N, so even though you go through increasingly many lines on your chart, the time to grow a pop point does not rise. In this sense, it's kind of like Zeno's paradox.
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logic_error
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@Chaos Theory:
Yep, I empirically verified that building enough satellites exactly doubles a base's population.
The thing that confused me was that I wondered whether the final nutrient surplus stays at +1 (so pop=2n-1, no further growth possible) or +0 (pop = exactly 2n). Maybe I try to think in a too complicated way. 
Last edited by logic_error on 04-08-2004 at 03:08
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logic_error
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quote:
Originally posted by Whoha
You have +1 nuts. This causes growth which brings in another person, who causes another orbital nut to come down. That nut + the original +1 supports the last person. |
But you cannot population boom unless you have +2 nutrients, do you? Watching some size 30 city to normally grow one pop unit with +1 nutrient surplus takes, well... forever.
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Qwerty88
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quote:
Originally posted by logic_error
But you cannot population boom unless you have +2 nutrients, do you? Watching some size 30 city to normally grow one pop unit with +1 nutrient surplus takes, well... forever. |
build a colony pod, the bas shrinks one size, population booms back up (+2 nut) and use the pod to grow it one more.
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
The whole game would benefit from more continua where now there are steps. Continuous population, resource gathering, energy allocation, inefficiency, hurry costs, etc. Floating-point numbers aren't that scary. Oh well. |
Drifting off-topic, but that's the fun part 
Cheers to that thought. The few games that do this are so much more fun, IMO. I think the developers tend to stay away from continuous systems because it intimidates the players. There's a huge element of 'Don't make it too complicated, or we'll lose our customer base'. Which is just what apparently happened with Smac. Many people say 'It's too complex'. Silly.
The only two strategy games similar to Smac that had continous functions for resources that I know of are "Pax Imperia I" in ship design, "MOO I" to a very small degree in random planets, and "Conquest of the New World", which has continuous resources. It's a great game in terms of city-building because of that, but the overall game seems quite unfinished and isn't really enjoyable for strategy. I'll bet a few of the more modern games are continous as well. So yeah, there's nothing preventing that from being brought into Smac/Civ, but it won't happen because it's too 'complex', methinks.
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Natalinasmpf
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But then that wouldn't be ICS....
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Nabvrimn
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One thing nobody's adressing: how do these patterns work out before boreholes and condensors become available. If wide spacing is better in the opening stages it wins out because that's when games are usually won.
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Nabvrimn
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Another thought: A condensor+enricher+farm produces 6 food, which with sats adds six to your pop, raising your sat limit by 6. It therefore really gives you 6 min, 6 energy, and 6 specialists. A borehole produces 6 min and 6 energy. Orbital solar collectors can be destroyed by random events. If you don't use them a super farm gives only 6 min and 7* specialists. The specialists presumably engineers which procuce 5 energy each. Mineral production is then the same for boreholes and super farms post SAM, and energy production for super farms is 35 to a borehole's mere 6, even if you build no solar sats. Base squares produce half the food and would have to produce 20 energy and 3 minerals to compensate**, therefore low base density is most beneficial in terms of raw mineral and energy production in the endgame. The endgame is not terribly relevant, but when you reach it you should fill in all your boreholes.
* the worker that would work the square can be replaced with a crawler
** this is, of course, impossible except with +3 or more econ during a solar flare
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:33
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quote:
Another thought: A condensor+enricher+farm produces 6 food, which with sats adds six to your pop, raising your sat limit by 6. It therefore really gives you 6 min, 6 energy, and 6 specialists. A borehole produces 6 min and 6 energy. Orbital solar collectors can be destroyed by random events. If you don't use them a super farm gives only 6 min and 7* specialists. The specialists presumably engineers which procuce 5 energy each. Mineral production is then the same for boreholes and super farms post SAM, and energy production for super farms is 35 to a borehole's mere 6, even if you build no solar sats. Base squares produce half the food and would have to produce 20 energy and 3 minerals to compensate**, therefore low base density is most beneficial in terms of raw mineral and energy production in the endgame. The endgame is not terribly relevant, but when you reach it you should fill in all your boreholes.
* the worker that would work the square can be replaced with a crawler
** this is, of course, impossible except with +3 or more econ during a solar flare |
To win, you do not need to efficently use space, but to build up very fast - time is the key, not effective placement!
You seem to not have played MP with veterans -> you'd see that such calculations as "this layout is not effective because it makes you lose 6nuts, therefore 3 specialists, therefore blahblah" are useless because by the time those 6 nuts will matter, you will be no more, as some other player has had a different idea
"why must I build EBank for 80mins, when I can build CP for 30 mins and have even better effect in the early & mid-game?!"
There's no place for perfection/idealism in real life/game - there's only place for maths & strats!
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04-08-2004 01:25
It also crams bases in so ridiculously small space that they stay tiny forever. And if you want to build any facilities on your bases, you get much less benefit compared to more spacious base layouts.
And besides, I'm a builder player by nature.
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