31-07-2004 11:02									#1
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I have changed my ICS type game from four tiles between bases to two. So far I’ve had great success with this. What used to be very hard, winning on Transcend, is now a bit to easy.

Maybe what I do to win is a sell out. You tell me if what I’m doing is considered to be somewhat less than proficient.

Early in the game I give in to all demands whether it be credits or tech. I run default SE, as to not get anyone upset, until I have an impact rover in all bases. When I reach this point, I’ll run whatever I want SE wise and no longer give in to anything. I find that you either go war and win, or everyone leaves you alone. Sometimes I can just hold them off until I get air power, in which case they can rarely get even one unit across my borders.

I still like to concentrate on building and do as much of this as possible.

I’m also finding that one faction is very dominant in the Transcend level. It’s either the Hive, or Sparta. Sometimes Miriam. They usually take out everyone else but me, and factions that I have a pact with if any.

By the time they get around to me, which they always do, I can wipe them out in a turn or two. In the screen shot below I was doing just that with Clean Drop Hovertanks.

Anyway, your input is welcome.

	31-07-2004 16:04									#2
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A very pretty version of ICS. Nice.

	31-07-2004 16:07									#3
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The "problem" with that spacing is that it's impossible (I think!) to get maximum borehole desity. Sure looks pretty though

Can I recommend you work your boreholes instead of crawling them? The extra mins or energy will be most useful.

	31-07-2004 16:42									#4
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Why would you need to crawl your boreholes with 16 population?!

	31-07-2004 17:01									#5
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Crawling boreholes either nets 6 mins or 6 energy, so half of the produced resources is wasted with crawling. Working them is another story.

	31-07-2004 18:58									#6
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Its not a sellout.

Heres another tip, don't build "clean drop quantum tanks" or any higher up units. Build a tank shell(no armor no weapons trained as only ability with the cheapest reactor) and then upgrade it to a better configuration. Upgrades a fairly cheap, especially as late as you are and if you got the nano factory.

	31-07-2004 19:13									#7
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Don't let the AI intimidate you into not running good SE, unless:
They have dangerous units near you
They are giving you something for not running an opposing SE, such as commerce or tech

The AI just isn't dangerous enough to let control you.

On the other hand, giving up tech is fine, since the AI can't use it anyway. Giving up energy is a little worse, since you could have used it, but peace might still be worth it.

	31-07-2004 19:16									#8
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With your crawlers, you would be much better having them crawl nuts from the farm. It really only gives one significant resource from those squares, so crawling them doesn't waste much. As others mentioned, work the boreholes.

	01-08-2004 06:18									#9
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If you consider your bases as a checkerboard with corners at the cardinal directions and build boreholes northeast and southwest in the "red squares" and northwest and southeast in the "black squares" you fit 32 boreholes in a 12 by 12 region as opposed to the 36 max you can fit in that region.

Each base recieves two boreholes and occupies a nine square footprint instead of recieving one borehole and occupying an eight square footprint. Base size maxes at 16.5* if all non borehole squares are farmed, enriched, and condensed, but unbonused, as opposed to 6.5 for tight packed bases. This gives 14.5 specialists per base as opposed to the 5.5 you can get out of tight packed bases. This ratio favors the larger base size for max specialists per unit area. Of course, things like nutrient specials, hydroponics labs, the monsoon jungle, and pop limits will favor the smaller tight packed bases.


* food production will support 16 or 6, but will have one nut left over causing unsupportable growth

	01-08-2004 06:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Why would you need to crawl your boreholes with 16 population?!

It does look more scenic with the crawlers covering the ugly looking boreholes. Nice forest.


Mead

PS
I suppose he could just park the crawlers (or some other more attractive looking unit) there but let the base workers work the square for the 6Energy, 6Mineral.

	01-08-2004 08:05									#11
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Thanks for all the comments. I'm going to look into a more borehole type plan and work them.

This square type ICS really does work for me. It's so easy to defend and doesn't take up much space. I'm embarrassed that I never thought of such a thing myself.

	01-08-2004 16:14									#12
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It does lack the hideous industrius crushing of the human spirit that ICS is famous for, though. Still, you can't have everything.

	02-08-2004 02:48									#13
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I'm not sure what Nabvrimn meant, but anyway, here is my version of city-tile-tile-city ICS.

Blue circle represents a city while B is a borehole. City's working area is outlined with darker grey. Feel free to add any condensers as needed.

Actually, it resembles very much knight movement in chess! If a knight starts in any borehole square, it can move to any B square using only B squares.

Attachment: ics_boreholes.jpg
This has been downloaded 187 time(s).

	02-08-2004 04:40									#14
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Actually, I like to place my bases the way you have your boreholes arranged, though not so rigidly. It gives bases a bit more room to work with, and allows for errors in the pattern, due to incorrigible terrain or other reasons.

	02-08-2004 05:07									#15
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Thanks for the map. I knew playing chess would come in handy.

	02-08-2004 05:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by logic_error I'm not sure what Nabvrimn meant, but anyway, here is my version of city-tile-tile-city ICS. Blue circle represents a city while B is a borehole. City's working area is outlined with darker grey. Feel free to add any condensers as needed. Actually, it resembles very much knight movement in chess! If a knight starts in any borehole square, it can move to any B square using only B squares.

your grid has 32 boreholes and 16 cities in it. hes saying that its possible to fit 36 boreholes and 36 cities into that grid.

BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN
BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN
BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN
BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN
BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN
BCBCBCBCBCBC
NNNNNNNNNNN

B = borehole
C = City
N = Condensor Nut Farm

Each city gets 1 borehole and 2 Condensor Farms, which lets it support a pop of 5 before orbital space flight, and around 11 after it. After Soil Enrichers and orbitals each city can support a population of 15.

	02-08-2004 05:51									#17
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Yep thats possible, but I think he was saying that even keeping the same base spacing strat, it's possible to get 32 boreholes in the same grid:

code:

BCBNCNBCBNCN
NNNNNNNNNNNN
BNBNBNBNBNBN
NCNNCNNCNNCN
BNBNBNBNBNBN
NNNNNNNNNNNN
BCBNCNBCBNCN
NNNNNNNNNNNN
BNBNBNBNBNBN
NCNNCNNCNNCN
BNBNBNBNBNBN
NNNNNNNNNNNN

	02-08-2004 06:11									#18
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Yea your grid has the same stuff that his does.

	02-08-2004 09:47									#19
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I was talking about something functionally identical to Logic_error's proposal. There are cosmetic differences. If you want that spacing and have coastlines to worry about there may be a difference.

If you have 33 or more nutsats. You could then field 31 mid-level* specialists per base and work two boreholesand the base square for 138 energy per base or 2016 total energy.

The tight spacing uses only 13 nutsats and can field 12 specialists per base plus one borehole worker. This produces 54 energy per base or 2016 total energy.

Your income is identical, but your infrastructure support costs for tight spacing will be 12.5% higher than for the looser spacing. Loose spacing has the additional advantage of each base producing more than 10 minerals per turn. I understand that 10 minerals in the box is an important threshold for rush build pricing, though I may be misunderstanding archive posts. Total mineral output, though, is lower.

The advantage of tight spacing is a total of 56 minerals over the 12 by 12 region.

Another potential advantage of loose spacing is that city positioning** has some flexability, allowing you to avoid wasting energy or mineral specials underneath crawled condensor farms.

* engineers, thinkers, and empaths

** cities can go in any of five squares in a cross in the 3 by 3 cells of a 2 space grid and be able to acess all squares in the region directly. They can go in a corner if the corner opposite is a crawled condensor farm and not a borehole.

	02-08-2004 18:42									#20
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I just realized there's a lot simpler-looking pattern compared to my previous one:

.B.....B....
.C.BCB.C.BCB
.B.....B....
....B.....B.
BCB.C.BCB.C.
....B.....B.
.B.....B....
.C.BCB.C.BCB
.B.....B....

Maybe I should make a Perl program to calculate all the possible variations. I wonder how many alternatives there are.

	02-08-2004 19:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn I was talking about something functionally identical to Logic_error's proposal. There are cosmetic differences. If you want that spacing and have coastlines to worry about there may be a difference. If you have 33 or more nutsats. You could then field 31 mid-level* specialists per base and work two boreholesand the base square for 138 energy per base or 2016 total energy. The tight spacing uses only 13 nutsats and can field 12 specialists per base plus one borehole worker. This produces 54 energy per base or 2016 total energy. Your income is identical, but your infrastructure support costs for tight spacing will be 12.5% higher than for the looser spacing. Loose spacing has the additional advantage of each base producing more than 10 minerals per turn. I understand that 10 minerals in the box is an important threshold for rush build pricing, though I may be misunderstanding archive posts. Total mineral output, though, is lower. The advantage of tight spacing is a total of 56 minerals over the 12 by 12 region. Another potential advantage of loose spacing is that city positioning** has some flexability, allowing you to avoid wasting energy or mineral specials underneath crawled condensor farms. * engineers, thinkers, and empaths ** cities can go in any of five squares in a cross in the 3 by 3 cells of a 2 space grid and be able to acess all squares in the region directly. They can go in a corner if the corner opposite is a crawled condensor farm and not a borehole.

Yes a looser spacing will ultimately yield better resources, but the tighter spacing needs less terraforming time, less orbitals, gives you more cities to build formers,units,and orbitals, and with GeneJack factories and rec tanks you can get above the magic 10 minerals per turn which means that you can rush something in every base every turn if you have the cash, and later on(when your setup really shines) there will be that cash..

There are a couple of ways you can choose your grid for the tightest spacing, so I generally look and see how the specials are set up before deciding how to place the grid, and its not that big a loss.

	03-08-2004 02:08									#22
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Actually, come to that, since tight packed cities can rush every two turns you can rush 18 items a turn in the 12 by 12 reference space as opposed to 16 items per turn with the looser spacing. Loose packed is probably easier to manage, and you can do more in the early stages before you start chopping down all the forests and installing boreholes and condensors. You can also get up to 12 minerals per turn by building a factory of some sort in the tight packed cities.

Correction to previous maths: I just noticed that engineers produce five energy per turn, so that benefits loose spacing,

Assuming you need one empath per worker and the rest are engineers loose packing gives 2416 energy excluding psych. Tight spacing gives 2124 energy excluding psych.

	03-08-2004 07:12									#23
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There are a lot of factors to take into consideration, and simply noting late game productivity isn't particularly useful. You want a system that is productive in all phases of the game, and if you are going to err, you want to err on the side of the early game lest you never make it to the later phases of the game.

That said, I would want a system that affords me an opportunity to max or nearly max out my base populations in the pre-hab dome pre-satellite eras. I also would insist upon at least 10 minerals worth of production from each base to facilitate rush buying.

One more thing to keep in mind. Having more bases in the same space may reduce the utility of some infrastructure, but certain effects are going to be advantaged. Clean facilities will likely be twice as many with an impact upon your clean mineral limit. SPs like the VW and HGP will have twice the impact. Wartime unit production can be as much as twice as fast, and perhaps most importantly population growth will occur much more quickly in every scheme. Consider the difference between two bases growing from population 1 to population 2 vs a single base growing that much all on its own time. Even when pop booming the smaller bases will turn all those nutrients into population twice as fast, which is not an inconsiderable advantage when nutrient satellites effectively double your population.

	03-08-2004 08:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Nabvrimn Actually, come to that, since tight packed cities can rush every two turns you can rush 18 items a turn in the 12 by 12 reference space as opposed to 16 items per turn with the looser spacing. Loose packed is probably easier to manage, and you can do more in the early stages before you start chopping down all the forests and installing boreholes and condensors. You can also get up to 12 minerals per turn by building a factory of some sort in the tight packed cities. Correction to previous maths: I just noticed that engineers produce five energy per turn, so that benefits loose spacing, Assuming you need one empath per worker and the rest are engineers loose packing gives 2416 energy excluding psych. Tight spacing gives 2124 energy excluding psych.

actually if you have a wonder that helps with drone control, or a Research lab then you don't need to have a doctor/empath.

	03-08-2004 20:52									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander .....all those nutrients into population twice as fast, which is not an inconsiderable advantage when nutrient satellites effectively double your population.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but nut sats only deliever 1 nut per city, with 1 nut per pop level max. Doesn't it take 2 nuts to jump to the next pop level? If so, wouldn't nut sats only raise the pop by 50%, not 100%?

	03-08-2004 22:05									#26
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If your population before satellites in some city is N, then that city must be collecting at least 2N nutrients, or it is starving. It had to have collected at least 2N-1 nutrients at some point, or it could not have grown to size N (apart from pod booming). Since the city is size N, satellites could provide N food, for a total of 3N. Now the city can grow to size 1.5N, allowing another .5N food from satellites (total 3.5N), allowing growth to 1.75N, etc. The result is a city of size 2N, receiving 2N nutrients normally and 2N from satellites.

	04-08-2004 00:19									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory The result is a city of size 2N, receiving 2N nutrients normally and 2N from satellites.

There must be a mathematical equation which proves this, but I can't figure it out.

However, empirical calculation yields these results (1 pop = n, and assume that no new tiles are worked):

code:
pop             foodprod        satsfoodprod
1               2               1
1.5             2               1.5
1.75            2               1.75
1.875           2               1.875
1.9375          2               1.9375
1.96875         2               1.96875
1.984375        2               1.984375
1.9921875       2               1.9921875
1.99609375      2               1.99609375
1.998046875     2               1.998046875
1.9990234375    2               1.9990234375

	04-08-2004 00:44									#28
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At pop (2N-1) you are producing 2N food from surface sources and 2N-1 food from sats for a total of 3N-1 food, which will support 2N-1 citizens with one food left over you will therefore grow to size 2N at which point you will be able to support 2N citizens with no food left over.

	04-08-2004 00:52									#29
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Essentially, sats take whatever nut production you have, and enable you to double it.

Consider a base with a population of 1 making 2 nuts. Add a nut sat to make 3 nuts. The base now grows due to +1 nuts. At 2 population it can support another population point, and therefore makes 4 nuts. It now has turned one pop into 2, but doesn't grow further due to a complete lack of more excess nuts now. Should it gain another nut, then it'll grow again (+1 nut), and a further satelite will enable it to be stable at size 3.

Satelites double nutrient production essentially.

Edit:Crosspost with above, but mine has hard numbers so it might be easier to understand for some people

	04-08-2004 01:19									#30
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Satelites also fix that damned alternating growth/starvation deally that has plagued civ.