01-08-2004 12:00									#1
	crusader kings? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

so what do you guys think of it now w/ the latest patch? i'm a bit weary to pick it up once it gets released in the usa considering they just added things like alliances to the latest patch. i imagine it'll be up to 1.04+ before the usa release though so maybe i will get it. it sounds fun but there are also a ton of negative/gameplay criticism threads over at the paradox forums(i just got around to reading them which is why i'm posting this). it also seems as if it might be a bit easy/not much of a challenge? is the replay value good?

	03-08-2004 08:34									#2
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I've played every single game paradox has put out and crusaders IMO has the potential to be the best one of them all. If they cut down on micromanagement and improve the war A.I. to at LEAST EU2 level, the modders will do the rest and it will be a great game. Problem is they take too long to patch and when they do it just doesn't seem like enough. Plus every year a new game comes out and it's the same drama over and over again...

	03-08-2004 13:53									#3
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yeah that's kinda what i'm getting at. potential is good but just how long is the game going to take before it's patched up to what it should have been at release? they make incredible games it just takes them a year or more to patch them greatness. is the game good now? i can pick it up in a year(when i imagine it'll still be being patched) and have much more fun while spending less.

what i'm really concerned about is i might spoil quite a bit of fun for myself if i play it before it's really ready. the game just seems like it's much rawer than other paradox games. again i mention alliances just patched in along with other stuff that i assumed was already in the box version. how did you guys play without alliances?

	04-08-2004 03:17									#4
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I imagine if you bought it now you would lose maybe three days just playing non-stop. The amazing thing is that its really open-ended( to the point that there are only a few historical events) and in the early game you really care about your characters and your empire.

Problem is you the farther you go, you start to realize the AI's weaknesses, your kingdom gets too huge and your family too large, and that's what they need to fix in the patches. Pretty soon you're making "house-rules" and then you finally stop and wait for the next patch.

Alliances are not the same as in EU2 i.e. there is no penalty for dishonoring them, so they are more of a bonus as it is. IMO they should not have incliuded it becaue now it's just another thing that needs tweaking.

	04-08-2004 12:41									#5
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I agree with Jagdtiger - the first few hours were fun, but as I started to realise the limits of the game it got old pretty quickly. I couldn't finish my first game and I've yet to start a second. One huge turn off was the Mongolian invasion. I was busy building a Kingdom of Georgia in the ME when suddenly hundreds of thousands of mongols storm in. This was Very Easy and there was no way I could have prepared for them. They sacked me and that was the end of that. This was 1.02.

I think I'll wait for 1.05 before trying again. HOI was pretty darn fine by 1.05.

	05-08-2004 03:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jagdtiger I imagine if you bought it now you would lose maybe three days just playing non-stop.

heh, i'm more afraid i'll stop playing within three days.

quote: The amazing thing is that its really open-ended( to the point that there are only a few historical events)

there aren't many historical events either? so it'd be like eu2 with just random events country(eg, non historical)?

quote: Problem is you the farther you go, you start to realize the AI's weaknesses, your kingdom gets too huge and your family too large, and that's what they need to fix in the patches. Pretty soon you're making "house-rules" and then you finally stop and wait for the next patch.

so basically it's got broken gameplay but you're too encouraged by ck's potential to be negative?

quote: Alliances are not the same as in EU2 i.e. there is no penalty for dishonoring them, so they are more of a bonus as it is. IMO they should not have incliuded it becaue now it's just another thing that needs tweaking.

you need alliances don't you? how else could you fight the mongols, crusade or fight larger kingdoms?

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I agree with Jagdtiger - the first few hours were fun, but as I started to realise the limits of the game it got old pretty quickly. I couldn't finish my first game and I've yet to start a second.

what's the main thing that's wrong? it doesn't have enough gameplay, it's not balanced or both?

	05-08-2004 16:11									#7
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"there aren't many historical events either? so it'd be like eu2 with just random events country(eg, non historical)?"


Yes it's a bit of a shock if you've played EU2:in CK only two historical events(mongol invasion, plague). Any others would not make much sense as after the initial characters die out, the next generation is completely based on player and AI choices.

"so basically it's got broken gameplay but you're too encouraged by ck's potential to be negative? "

Maybe . But actually if you've played EU2 or HOI etc enough the same thing happens. Problem is in EU2 you got pretty strict limits to control the size of your kingdom (stability, revolts, cultures) where as in CK what restrictions you have are pretty weak so you can grow super-strong and there is no way to stop you.


"you need alliances don't you? how else could you fight the mongols, crusade or fight larger kingdoms?"

Everybody gets military access on everybody else(yeah, I don't understand it either). And believe it or not, you are the only one who is going crusading. As of yet, the AI is still incapable of it.



"what's the main thing that's wrong? it doesn't have enough gameplay, it's not balanced or both?"

Mostly, not enough restrictions on the player, too much micromanagement past the first 100 years, dubious war AI, and other things that badly need fixing, like not being able to make peace for your vassals and not having control of your duke's counts.

	06-08-2004 00:01									#8
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I'd say that CK is very rough around the edges and in need of balancing but the game's still playable and enjoyable to a degree, if you can stomach it (like the guys that are currently making AARs, for example).

That said, I'd wait for 1.04 (which will very likely be out around the North American release) or later if I were in your position.

If you want an EU2 mod that takes place in the CK era, then the MES (Mongol Empire Scenario) does a very good job at providing such an experience (loads of events, leaders, etc).

	10-08-2004 16:08									#9
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CK is a great game, maybe even better than good ol' EU2. It has some issues that has to be taken care of though.

Kass: The Mongol thing has been taken somewhat care of, not perfectly, but it's muchg better in 1.03b than in 1.02. For example: Amount of Mongols dependant on difficulity level.

	14-08-2004 08:05									#10
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I'm just happy that this is comming out in September and thus not a GPA killer.

	03-09-2004 18:40									#11
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This what? CK has been out since April... If you have problems getting it, just order it directly from Paradox. That way they get more money too.