02-08-2004 22:44									#1
	Discussion - when do we switch to republic? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Um, hay guys, we are (cross your fingers) going to get republic in the next couple of turns. When should we switch?

Now
Just before the war so we get our GA in republic, but we do all our prep work prior to.
After the war (despotic GA probability)
Never, we should have gone for monarchy or feudalism instead of wasting our time on republic.

Please voice your opinions here. We can set up a pole in a little bit if it looks like we need to make a consensus.

	02-08-2004 22:55									#2
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The sooner the better.

Just make sure there are no CDG or PAL units close.

And go, we lose the ANarchy turns but should recoop that by the time the war starts with the bonus's.

	02-08-2004 23:02									#3
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As fast that we get it, before the war breaks out.

	03-08-2004 00:59									#4
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now.

'Polys cow will have an extra food per turn.

and we will have more gold for research and, crucially, upgrades

and will will, in all probability, have no morethan 5 turns of anarchy because our empire is so small.

	03-08-2004 02:05									#5
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I'd like to see a breakdown of the exact benefits (gpt/tile improvements/science, etc.) as we switch. I've always been a bit hazy on the exact changes we'll see on the switch.

Of course I'm too busy to do this type of analysis but if someone out there is into it I'd love to hear it.

	03-08-2004 02:26									#6
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ASAP! As Krill suggests, the smaller your Civ, the less turns you'll spend "reorganizing" the government. We may only get 2 turns at this size.

	03-08-2004 02:37									#7
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fat chance of only 2 turns, the minimum is 4 in C3C.

Personally, I would get Republic, and then cut out researc for about 10 turns. we should be able to get enough gold to upgrade about another 4~5 swords, and that added to what we can build, as well as cats and archers, and we should have no problem cracking CDG.

	03-08-2004 02:40									#8
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I dont know if we have anyone who could do that in depth analysis right now Sir Osis, GK is busy enough with MOI stuff, and I know I dont have the time.

You get bonus's in all areas, intuitively, Im thinking the payback will be fairly quick.

	03-08-2004 02:52									#9
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I can't promise anything, but I can give an estimate for our present cities tomorrow. But I can assure you that it will be worth it, unless we build an SoD the size of GWTs' Ansar + Slow mover stack...

	03-08-2004 03:29									#10
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Krill makes a good point. FOOD LIMITS ARE LIFTED! That's one of the main things preventing an Apolytonian REX. If we could get Apolyton's tiles set up right, we might be able to do 4-turn settlers there. (That would require some more workers, though. We're stretched beyond thin in that department.)

However, I don't believe this is feasible at the moment. With 5 towns, we'd only be getting 5 free units (or possibly 7; does the capitol count as a city with regards to free maintenance?) That means 13*2=26 gpt needed for unit maintenance currently. Even if we do get 7 free units, that's still 22 gpt for maintenance. We simply can't pay that. And it'll only get worse as our worker and military forces expand.

	03-08-2004 03:44									#11
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Crap, but we need the food bonus for REX, so how do we do that?

Continue to REX as well as the military build up.

Is that possible?????

	03-08-2004 03:52									#12
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Ack, I forgot to factor in the increased commere and decreased corruption. So I'm likely wrong about it being impossible.

Assuming around +1 commerce per pop point from the combined effects of more commerce and less corruption, our GPT if we suddenly snapped in to Rep now would be around our military maintenance. Probably under 5 gpt short. However, if our military build-up exceeded our population/gpt buildup, which wouldn't be that hard especially once we stop founding cities for more population centers and free maintenance, it could get bad.

Edit: One more point. We're currently reliant on military police to keep the population in line above size 3. We'd have to use 10% lux to keep anything larger happy. Not being able to run at 100% tax would increase our monetary problems.

Last edited by Kloreep on 03-08-2004 at 03:57

	03-08-2004 04:22									#13
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It sounds like unit support might be a problem for our economy. How many units did we plan to have before taking on CDG?

I'll attempt to answer my own question.

From looking at the build queues we will not produce any more settlers for some time. Therefore we will only support 6 free units with our 6 towns.

#1 Apolyton – wf 12, 18 - Hoplite, Hoplite, worker, settler
#2 Hypnos - wf 3, 8, 19 – Archer (4), horse (scheduled, but will not be available because of how the workers ended up being moved, so switch to archer and if time permits switch back prior to completion), worker, horse, sword, sword
#3 Poseidon's Harbor - wf 1, 20(cow) - archer, worker, archer, currach, hoplite, sword, sword
#4 Naked Aphrodite - wf 2, 19 - Barracks (under way), hoplite, archer, sword
#5 Olympus - wf 2– archer, worker, temple, granary, settler
#6 horse city when founded – wf 16 (oasis)– barracks, sword


The queue is ~24 units which would cost us 48gpt. I'm not sure what our economy will be producing but I don't think we can support this type of force. We also need to upgrade our warriors to swords at 60 gold each.

We will get the +1 commerce in tiles already producing 1 but we really need more worker tile improvements.

I'm for not switching immediately until we really determine the benefits/drawbacks.

While the typical wisdom is to jump to Republic this may not be in our best interest with a war looming.

	03-08-2004 11:56									#14
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Will we be able to keep the people happy? Usually switching early to republic eats all the extra gold for entertainment
But, on the other hand, I have no expirience with Conquests expansion

	03-08-2004 11:59									#15
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As soon as possible. So long as you wheat counters can guarantee enough gold to maintain an elaborate military I'm fine.

	03-08-2004 19:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX As soon as possible. So long as you wheat counters can guarantee enough gold to maintain an elaborate military I'm fine.

Its bean counters

	04-08-2004 08:41									#17
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We need to figure out how to do this pre war.

Unless someone can guarentee me we will NOT launch a GA with hoplites during the war.

GA this early is bad enough, I want the bonus's of a GA under Republic, not depotism.

	04-08-2004 09:02									#18
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We may be able to switch to Rep shortly before the war. (That might be good if diplo tensions are raising.) With the GA triggered shortly thereafter, and our cities presumable more developed, we might be able to handle the bill.

	04-08-2004 10:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 We need to figure out how to do this pre war. Unless someone can guarentee me we will NOT launch a GA with hoplites during the war. GA this early is bad enough, I want the bonus's of a GA under Republic, not depotism.

A guarantee can't be given, unless we do not send any Hoplites near the war, let alone to fight in it.

	04-08-2004 16:12									#20
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That was kind of my point Nuke.

Since this war is 99% sure going to launch our GA, we need to figure out how to best take advantage of that GA.

	04-08-2004 20:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX As soon as possible. So long as you wheat counters can guarantee enough gold to maintain an elaborate military I'm fine.

I pretty much agree with this - the war and supporting our troops is the most important thing ATM.

* MrWhereItsAt does a double take

Oh sh*t! Am I the RL Dubya as well?

Switching somewhere soon before the war sounds good to me. By then we may have enough cities around that we can support our military in Republic, and could use the GA to bolster that as well as reinforcements (if needed), and it would deter PAL from any hypothetical surprise attack, as we would be able to reinforce quickly, even if they had THEIR GA.

There's an idea.... why don't we ask PAL for their ideas on when we should have our GA, and what they are planning to do. That won't be telling them anything, they will be in a similar position, and we might benefit off of their MP strategic knowhow. And it's just this sort of contact that will keep us as allies working to help each other.

	04-08-2004 21:49									#22
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Good idea MWIA

	04-08-2004 22:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Switching somewhere soon before the war sounds good to me. By then we may have enough cities around that we can support our military in Republic, and could use the GA to bolster that as well as reinforcements (if needed), and it would deter PAL from any hypothetical surprise attack, as we would be able to reinforce quickly, even if they had THEIR GA.

But wont going to Republic sooner enable us to get more cities online sooner? And thats the thing that is really hindering us right now, the lack of enough cities (generating enough commerce) to support a SoD in Republic.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt There's an idea.... why don't we ask PAL for their ideas on when we should have our GA, and what they are planning to do. That won't be telling them anything, they will be in a similar position, and we might benefit off of their MP strategic knowhow. And it's just this sort of contact that will keep us as allies working to help each other.

Thats a good idea. I shall do this.

	04-08-2004 22:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 But wont going to Republic sooner enable us to get more cities online sooner? And thats the thing that is really hindering us right now, the lack of enough cities (generating enough commerce) to support a SoD in Republic.

If we switch right now, I estimate we'll be a few gpt short at 100% tax. And if we want cities above size 3, we'll need less than 100% tax so wec an use the lux slider.

	05-08-2004 05:29									#25
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We will have cities up to size 5.

one content citizen (naturally)
2 lux (2 more content)
20% on the lux slider (2 more content)

We will have 6 cities.
Under despotism, we get 4 units support per city.
Under republic, we get 1 unit support per city.
Unit support is 2gpt

We will have approximately 43 units at the start of the war (including all workers and homeland security units). We have 18 units right now.

This means, if we are in despotism, we will be paying about 38 gpt for unit support. Under republic, we will be paying close to 74 gpt.

Currently (as of the last save) we are making 14 gpt on 100% tax. With city growth taken into effect, we will be making an average of 28 gpt (estimated) under despotism, minus all the new units as they come on line

In republic, we will be making only slightly more. I ran a comparison (quick game under similar circumstances) and figure we will be making about 8 more gpt. Remember, this assumes full tax. As we already have 18 units, that means we will start paying 24 gpt in unit support NOW, and will be adding more units almost every turn.

Now, considering all the above, I don't see any way we can maintain the size force our military is asking for without growing and adding more cities into the mix, or without doing much upgrading and running a deficit for a while.

Also, republic doesn't look good at all until just prior to starting war and entering our GA, or perhaps not even til after the war starts and we have a few extra cities.

	05-08-2004 05:59									#26
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Crap

Thanks for looking into this GK

	07-08-2004 01:54									#27
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Boy, did that post kill all the discussions in this forum..... where has everybody gone for the past 2 days?

	07-08-2004 02:15									#28
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Am moving flats, plus the save hasn't been in evidence for the same amount of time. No play = get caught up on RL work.

	07-08-2004 02:44									#29
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I dunno, it must be mid summer doldrums for the forums. In the northern hemisphere anyway

	08-08-2004 00:42									#30
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Can we trade for a 3rd luxary? [Even if it's with the party we go to war with.)

That would make Republic much more viable.
Not that as long as we don't declare the war, for the first few turns of a war, we'd have negative war wearrious which should counter act the loss of a luxary.