03-08-2004 02:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If the father wanted the child back, most certainly, since child custody is a matter of the law. So in the end, economic situations have little to do with it. The very fact that people fought to keep elian had much to do with politics, NOT sentiment.

I would respectfully say that for the Cuban community in Miami politics and sentiment were (and are) inseperable. Their concern for Elian, a child, was inseperable from their view of Cuba, a country with which they were intimately involved, so that glib (if valid) comparisons to China did not move them. Given that they did so care, and were fighting to keep Elian, the rest of us had to react to that. That some chose to react with sympathy to the Miami family is not necessarily more political than that some chose to sympathize with the boys father (assuming that was really what he wanted) though the law may have been on the side of the latter.

To the cuban community in Miami, and to many of the rest of us, the notion that the father was acting under duress from the Cuban govt was not at all fantastic, and i dont know that its disproven to this day. Its hard to imagine a comparable situation wrt to Mexico or Brazil. It is very much possible to imagine such a situation wrt China - an extended family taking a child in, a father possibly under duress asking for custody - but geography militates against a similar situation wrt to China.

	03-08-2004 02:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Arent we harsh on Haitians and Mexicans for precisely the economic reasons that did not apply to Elian because he DID have an established, middle class extended family eager to take him in?

They weren't middle class. They were lower class thugs and conmen. It was a family of petty criminals.

	03-08-2004 02:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You mean, just like the Exile Leaders in Miami would have used this kid to humiliate Castro until he died?

Yes they would have. However after he was 18 he would be able to leave Miami and start out on his own. In Cuba no change in heII will he be able to leave. The Cuba Gov. will be watching this kid for a very long time.

	03-08-2004 02:45									#34
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I would respectfully say that for the Cuban community in Miami politics and sentiment were (and are) inseperable. Their concern for Elian, a child, was inseperable from their view of Cuba, a country with which they were intimately involved, so that glib (if valid) comparisons to China did not move them. Given that they did so care, and were fighting to keep Elian, the rest of us had to react to that. That some chose to react with sympathy to the Miami family is not necessarily more political than that some chose to sympathize with the boys father (assuming that was really what he wanted) though the law may have been on the side of the latter.

And I would respectfully say I don't give a **** about what the Cuban Miami community wants, thinks, or cares about- they don't set immigration policy, asylum policy, nor child custody law. This was a matter of custody. The law on that was blatantly clear.

quote: To the cuban community in Miami, and to many of the rest of us, the notion that the father was acting under duress from the Cuban govt was not at all fantastic, and i dont know that its disproven to this day. Its hard to imagine a comparable situation wrt to Mexico or Brazil. It is very much possible to imagine such a situation wrt China - an extended family taking a child in, a father possibly under duress asking for custody - but geography militates against a similar situation wrt to China.

Yes, its hard becuase it WOULD NEVER COME UP WITH A FATHER FROM THOSE COUNTRIES. no questions would be asked if the father asked for the kid back. And if family in the US fought it, it would hardly get press and be resolved arther simply, since the law is crystal clear.
And again, conspiracy theories about the father "being pressured" mean nothing, and are nothing more than that, cheap and worthless speculation.

	03-08-2004 02:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Yes they would have. However after he was 18 he would be able to leave Miami and start out on his own. In Cuba no change in heII will he be able to leave. The Cuba Gov. will be watching this kid for a very long time.

Only if you think Castro has 10 years or more of life left in him. That regime won't last long after the old man dies.

	03-08-2004 02:47									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And again, conspiracy theories about the father "being pressured" mean nothing, and are nothing more than that, cheap and worthless speculation.

come now, they wouldnt let him come to Miami without watchers from the Cuban Secret service, IIRC.

	03-08-2004 02:48									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph I started this thread to show that Castro is using this kid to thumb his nose at the USA and noting more. I don't think Castro gives a shlt about this kid.

And you do? You're only using the kid for political reasons, hypocrite.

	03-08-2004 02:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And I would respectfully say I don't give a **** about what the Cuban Miami community wants, thinks, or cares about- they don't set immigration policy, asylum policy, nor child custody law. This was a matter of custody. The law on that was blatantly clear. Yes, its hard becuase it WOULD NEVER COME UP WITH A FATHER FROM THOSE COUNTRIES. no questions would be asked if the father asked for the kid back. And if family in the US fought it, it would hardly get press and be resolved arther simply, since the law is crystal clear. And again, conspiracy theories about the father "being pressured" mean nothing, and are nothing more than that, cheap and worthless speculation.

However it was reported at the time the Father was a member of the party.

	03-08-2004 02:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph However it was reported at the time the Father was a member of the party.

What difference does that make?

	03-08-2004 02:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark come now, they wouldnt let him come to Miami without watchers from the Cuban Secret service, IIRC.

Wasn't mentioned at the time in the Press or Apolyton.

	03-08-2004 02:52									#41
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Commies are child fiddlers. Well known fact.

	03-08-2004 02:57									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph However it was reported at the time the Father was a member of the party.

As Che said? So what? If anything, it means he would in general have a better life in Cuba than non-party members.

	03-08-2004 03:00									#43
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I love how it's perfectly acceptable to steal a man's kid because he lives in a Communist country, but if someone who could provide a better life for your kid came along and tried to take them, you'd shoot them. Hypocrites.

	03-08-2004 03:03									#44
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political alignment is no basis for determining weather or not someone can be a good parent... I think Che will be a good dad, [troll]and most parents who kill their kids are Democrats while most Young Repubs are driven to suicide or killing their classmates[/troll]

	03-08-2004 03:12									#46
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Communists don't wanna talk much about the individual, right? It's the needs of the societal group and all that jazz, and whogivesaratsass about what joe blow wants (unless he's one of the party bosses...I mean, we can't fess up to having "class separation" but dividing haves and have-nots on the basis of the one-party affiliation, well that's a horse of a different color...uh huh).

So what's the big deal?



-=Vel=-
/troll off

	03-08-2004 03:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Communists don't wanna talk much about the individual, right?

You keep thinking that.

	03-08-2004 03:13									#48
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At the age of 10, I would've thought it was frikkin' cool to have Castro at my birthday party.

But then, I was a very political child.

	03-08-2004 03:19									#49
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You keep thinking that.

Hey....I'm getting it straight from several of your comrades in red. Besides, are you *actually* saying that communism DOES talk about the individual (much less individual RIGHTS?...that'd be new!)

Society as a whole...that's where the magic is. Forget the individual. Forget god. Forget YOUR needs and march to the beat of the big red drum.

And say it ain't so. As GePap already pointed out, party affiliation all but guarantees the kid a better life than without (implying "class separation" along party lines, even tho strict doctrine tells us it's s'posed to be a classless utopia).

Kid's gone. Water under the proverbial bridge.

Interesting, in its way, but....:: shrug::

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 03:22									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx You keep thinking that. Hey....I'm getting it straight from several of your comrades in red. Besides, are you *actually* saying that communism DOES talk about the individual (much less individual RIGHTS?...that'd be new!)

Yes, it does. You fail to understand, however, that it is only within a social group the individuals can have any rights. Harming the group in order to aid the individual ultimately harms the individual.

	03-08-2004 03:26									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And you do?

Yes I actually do. Just like I was upset during the Serbs killing all the Muslims in Bosnia, the little deal down in Rawana, and now the Muslim killing the Black African in Sudan.

	03-08-2004 03:29									#52
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If you really cared about him as an individual and not as a cause, you wouldn't be using him to make a political point.

	03-08-2004 03:30									#53
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Ahhhh....but harming a few individuals who dare to think a bit outside the box (or you know, making their families vanish and stuff)....that *strengthens* the group (and by extension, good for the individuals too...even the vanished ones)

I get you.

-=Vel=-
(now back to your regularly scheduled discussion....just couldn't resist a bit of red baiting...)

	03-08-2004 03:36									#55
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I think Elian should have been sent to the CAR. That way we'd never had to hear of him again

(Yes, I'm drunk. Why do you ask?)

	03-08-2004 03:37									#56
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Che, you're a good egg. Might not agree with you politically, but you're a good guy...

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 03:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you really cared about him as an individual and not as a cause, you wouldn't be using him to make a political point.

Castro is using him for political points. What 10 year has the whole school turn out for his birthday and the Pres. of the Country show up for his birthday, unless he close friend or relative. Also what 10 year goes to the Party Congress meeting.

	03-08-2004 03:44									#58
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Harming individuals who think outside the box harms the group. It's is not good communism to do so, and is the easiest proof that this world has yet to see a true communist society.

	03-08-2004 03:57									#59
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(posting my reply to monolith over in the cap/com thread so's not to continue my blatant threadjack)

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 03:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Why is stupid to dislike a communist? The cold war for you was over when you were 14. The cold war was over for me when I was 48. Plus I had to take the oath when I was 17 and again at 21 to defend the USA from all enemies which at the time was communisms.

The Cold War's so quaint. All of it. MAD, Soviets, nuclear war, bomb shelters, space race. It's cute.