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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
how about only the ones whos moms die in the attempt to get them to the US.
Cmon, what SHOULD have happened was that Elians mom should have lived, and he should have been brought up by her in the US, with assistance from her family. After that it was a tragedy either way, and its too bad most people at the time couldnt see it other than through the lens of politics. Im surprised people here are going to back to full 1999 mode - if we're going to see it only through the lens of politics, might as well at least do it through the lens of current politics, which is why i brought up the Al Gore dig. |
But the mother did NOt live, and luckly the child did not die either. Since the remaining father, who by all accounts was a dutyful father, had every right to custody.
Morality and the Law were on the father's side. Those who wanted him to stay were the ones motivated not by their respect for law, but by raw politics. The proof of that is that people talking about poor Elian would most likely not gived a damend if the mother or father in case were haitian, or if it were a Mexican mother dying in the desert.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
But the mother did NOt live, and luckly the child did not die either. Since the remaining father, who by all accounts was a dutyful father, had every right to custody.
Morality and the Law were on the father's side. Those who wanted him to stay were the ones motivated not by their respect for law, but by raw politics. The proof of that is that people talking about poor Elian would most likely not gived a damend if the mother or father in case were haitian, or if it were a Mexican mother dying in the desert. |
If he had been Mexican, hed have gone back to live in a free country, and wouldnt have had his upbrining distorted by being a cause celebre in Mexico.
Look, the outcome was still tragic. Having a mother who wanted him to live in freedom with her "family of criminal and thugs" and being returned to live in Cuba with a regime loyal father IS a tragedy, even if the law requires it, and morality, given the absence of close relatives the boy knew in Florida, required it. Elians tragedy will end when he has the opportunity to move freely between his relatives in Miami and his father living in a free Cuba.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
If he had been Mexican, hed have gone back to live in a free country, and wouldnt have had his upbrining distorted by being a cause celebre in Mexico. |
Yes, cause he would have been a simple statistic- Elian becmae a "cause celebre' in Cuba ONLY after he was amde a cause celebre by his relatives here and the exiles, so willing to use him. Had he simply being picked up, like any other unfortunate immigrant, and gotten shipped of back home he would have no fame. It was US Cuban immigration policy and the exiles that made his life a circus by fighting the attempts of the father top get the kid back.
quote:
Look, the outcome was still tragic. Having a mother who wanted him to live in freedom with her "family of criminal and thugs" and being returned to live in Cuba with a regime loyal father IS a tragedy, even if the law requires it, and morality, given the absence of close relatives the boy knew in Florida, required it. Elians tragedy will end when he has the opportunity to move freely between his relatives in Miami and his father living in a free Cuba. |
As opposed to all those free living haitians? Please. People in Haiti are worse off than in Cuban, but becuase they live in desitutte conditions and anarchy, as opposed to Communist distatorship, we don;t give a damn. Of course, the reason he could not travel about has more to do with US policy towards Cuba than Cuba's politics, since I doubt we would have any problems with shipping off some Chinese Kid bakc the that land of grand freedom, the PRC
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Yes, cause he would have been a simple statistic- Elian becmae a "cause celebre' in Cuba ONLY after he was amde a cause celebre by his relatives here and the exiles, so willing to use him. Had he simply being picked up, like any other unfortunate immigrant, and gotten shipped of back home he would have no fame. It was US Cuban immigration policy and the exiles that made his life a circus by fighting the attempts of the father top get the kid back.
As opposed to all those free living haitians? Please. People in Haiti are worse off than in Cuban, but becuase they live in desitutte conditions and anarchy, as opposed to Communist distatorship, we don;t give a damn. Of course, the reason he could not travel about has more to do with US policy towards Cuba than Cuba's politics, since I doubt we would have any problems with shipping off some Chinese Kid bakc the that land of grand freedom, the PRC |
we have laws on political asylum, and asylum seekers are treated differently from people fleeing poverty or even anarchy. Perhaps you disagree with those laws. And IIRC they didnt apply to Elian, as a parent must apply for asylum in the case of a minor. But it was hardly hypocrisy to treat a political refugee (which he would have been had his mother lived) differently from others - thats an example of the emotions of the people following the spirit of the laws, even in this situation the letter of the law conflicted with said emotion.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
reflecting on what y'all have said, if a Mexican or Haitian child were to arrive here, and had a large extended family willing to care for them, would we really be quick to cast him out? Arent we harsh on Haitians and Mexicans for precisely the economic reasons that did not apply to Elian because he DID have an established, middle class extended family eager to take him in? Strangers or no. (and dont be so harsh on strangers - i know of lots of stories of refugees and immigrants taken in by strangers theyd never met - it happened in my own family) |
If the father wanted the child back, most certainly, since child custody is a matter of the law. So in the end, economic situations have little to do with it. The very fact that people fought to keep elian had much to do with politics, NOT sentiment.
quote:
Suppose Elians father was dead - would anyone here say he should have been sent back to Cuba to insure equal treatment with Haitians? Isnt this really about other issues? Namely the fathers rights? And how often does a father from Haiti or Mexico turn down the right to migrate TO the US to rejoin his son, as Elians father did? Now maybe that happened cause Cuba is such a wonderful place to live, as Aggi suggested. Or maybe it was cause pressure was applied to the father, as some in the US thought. |
No, its about the laws of custody. The father wanted the child back. That is all it boiled down to. Your stuff about him not coming to the US is really irrelevant. The fact that we offerd the father to come to the US shows how this was all about politics- a poor mexican or haitian father would never have been offered by the government the ability to join the kid.
But its all over and done with, and the discussion is pointless now. [/QUOTE]
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