03-08-2004 21:23									#1
	What can I expect when moving up to Regent? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Is it a big jump to go from Warlord to Regent? I know this is where you're on par with the AI in everything, so it will be tougher.

Also, could you take a look at this saved game...vanilla Civ3 (my Conquests disc is broken ) I tried posting this on civfanatics but it only got one response, so I'm hoping I'll get more here.

Also, the guy that responded already mentioned the far spacing in my core (I know I know, 3 wasted wheat squares ...stupid me). I know this is the best game I've ever played and I think I'm ready to move up to regent. but I could use a few more tips here (if there are any to give )

Also, I'm probably going to be gone for four days starting tonight, so after that don't expect any responses from me for a while...

Attachment: uncontested.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	03-08-2004 22:01									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I can't look at the save now, so I'll stick to general advice.

1. Expect to lose a few wonders you used to get regularly. You should still be able to sweep most of them, but will probably have to do without the Oracle or HG or somesuch, so go ahead and start learning how to prioritize which ones to go after. Better yet, use this opportunity to break yourself of the Warlord Wonder Addiction, if you suffer from it (as I think most of us do or did at that level). Believe it or not, you can live without the Pyramids, and it isn't a good idea to hold off building any granaries because you're going to get the Pyramids in 30 turns anyway. Try playing a game with no ancient wonders. You may be amazed at how productive those cities can be when not tied up the whole time building the Great Wall.

2. Learn to exploit city spacing. Read up on various techniques, such as ralphing and zenning. Your REX generally isn't going to be as good on Regent, for the simple reason that the AI can REX faster, so you need to make it count for more. Learn the joy of the 4-turn settler pump.

3. Learn how to trade. You didn't need to on Warlord, since you probably had a tech lead from the ancient era onward, and you really won't have to on Regent, but it's a good level to learn on.

4. Develop different approaches based on your civ and circumstance. At Warlord, it didn't matter who you were or what your land was. You could forge ahead the same way every time and win. Use Regent to learn how to play to each civ's strengths and how to best exploit the land around you.

5. Forget about having two defenders, or even one, in every city. Prioritize where you need defense and use the extra spots in your military for a more formidable offensive force. On a corollary, explore different military approaches if you're inclined to warmongering.

6. Learn how to micromanage, and what level of micromanagement you're comfortable with, both in cities and with workers. More is better, as far as game results, but not everybody enjoys intense MM. If you automate your workers now, stop. The biggest skill you will need on higher levels is worker management.

The general theme is that you can still win on Regent without making these adjustments, but it's a great level on which to learn how to adjust for when you move up. You still have a bit of a safety net if you try something and it doesn't work out, but can get bitten if you just constantly make dumb decisions or don't put any thought into your game.

As I see it, Chieftain is for learning game mechanics. Warlord is for building confidence. Regent is for learning the nuances and refining your game. Monarch and Emperor are for getting a stiff challenge from the AI (and further refining playstyle). Demigod and up are for masochists.

	03-08-2004 23:54									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I did not do more than a peek at the game so.....

As was noted the spacing needs to be tighter.

Too many cities in disorder, this is due to size 8 -11 not having temples/cath/colosseum. Many do not have libs. This with you having so much cash on hand.

Research is less than optimal. You should have gotten to Scientific Method to build the ToE. Then get Atomic and Elec for free tech to build Hoover.

I would like to see a few more civs eliminated this late in the game.

Raise the lux to use some of that extra income, at least until you can get more happy structures. You can keep the imported luxs with tech trades, if you manage them wisely.

	04-08-2004 00:22									#4
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Well, I was saving up some of my money for a bit of espionage, and the reason some of the cities are in disorder is because I'm at war (a war that will end soon, before I get too much war weariness). The reason I went to war with them is because I failed in getting a spy in their capital. I was thinking of raising the luxury rate, but I hadn't done it yet. Also, I think I have a temple in all of my cities except mayb one or two, but you're right, I don't build a lot of cathedrals. I try to get marketplaces wherever I can, and I sometiems get colosseums and cathedrals, and I thought that most of my cities had libraries...maybe I should check that. The cities far out to the northwest (former Babylon) aren't very productive, and I think Nineveh pushed me too far over the optimal city limit and the Forbidden Palace isn't in the best of spots I'll admit.

Now my question is, what victory condition should I go for? I've been thinking of just sitting back and getting the space race, but a Domination victory actually wouldn't be that hard, but what's the most logical solution here?

Last edited by bob rulz on 04-08-2004 at 00:35

	04-08-2004 00:41									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Is there a reason you're trying to plant spies?

I've found that they are all but useless against the AI. A waste of gold and a sure way to start a war. It's better to use that gold on improvements. Get those happy buildings built and you should be able to easily sustain 20 turns of war as a republic even at higher levels. If your war is lasting more than 20 turns, chances are you didn't properly prepare for it or something else is wrong and you should be making peace.

Unless of course you are like myself and prefer Communism even in vanilla....

Didn't think so.

	04-08-2004 00:49									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, maybe not on lower levels, but I know that on higher levels tech-stealing is practically a necessity. Besides, why not plant spies? No one even comes close to matching me in power. Even if I attempt to plant a spy and it's caught and they declare war I'm still going to beat them all. Besides, I wanted to do some propaganda too, if I could ever drag them out of Democracy that is.

But my main question is do you guys think that I'm ready for Regent?

	04-08-2004 01:01									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A couple of things...

On Regent, spies are useful, but only when you plant them and leave them alone. The best use for them is displaying the enemy order of battle and investigating cities during wartime. Propaganda, in my experience, is worthless.

Also, if you have several cities in disorder, chances are you already have too much WW. This is one of the main reasons I no longer use democracy.

	04-08-2004 01:02									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I can safely say that I have never stolen a tech, certainly never NEEDED to, and never successfully planted propoganda. I've played and beaten up to diety back in PTW, but don't find that much micromanagement fun (I basically micro all day at work, don't need to in my spare time) so stick to emperor/demigod for nice, little-micro needed games.

There are better ways to get tech. Either through trading or through the sword on higher levels.

Spying is an expensive pass time that yields few rewards. Point is there are better ways to be spending the cash. Unless, of course you want the AI to be the one declaring war at a particular time. Then by all means let that spy get caught.

Doesnt change the fact that you can easily have enough happiness infrastructure at home to withstand a 20 turn war in Republic, and you should have the military capability to achieve your objectives within those 20 turns beforehand.

I haven't been able to look at the save but from what I'm hearing, yeah, you're ready for regent with the few modifications to your city spacing.

edit: ugh, me warmonger...can't spell...

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 04-08-2004 at 01:30

	04-08-2004 01:34									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, I've got about 57 cities now, so a few cities in civil disorder during war in a Republic isn't that bad. People's views of spies and espionage are different though, some people can find use for them some can't. I've read several stories on civfanatics and here on apolyton where people were way behind and used stealing techs to get even in tech.

	04-08-2004 01:43									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I didn't say they had no use, just that the cost is typically better used elsewhere. Vs the AI...

You can usually trade for it for far cheaper if you haven't totally blown your reputation to hell. Warring doesn't need to ruin your rep.

	04-08-2004 02:02									#11
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Heh, my current game I have 135 cities (late middle ages), and one city in disorder is too much. If they can be placated without crippling your empire, by all means, continue the fight. Fought the right way, you can withstand far longer than 20 turns. Though you should have the capability to end it in 20 turns, huge maps sometimes don't allow it, just for the distances involved.

	04-08-2004 02:08									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

bob rulz those cities do not need to be in disorder even with a war and even with some WW. My point is that you need to start making sure you take care of those issue if you want to move up.

Losing producion in a few cities is never a good thing.


As to the flavor of victory, that is up to you. Me if I have a bunch of troops, I like to smash a few civs. I may get bored and finish it with a launch with so many civs left.

If you have the UN allowed, you could gift a bunch of techs and win by vote. If you do not have too bad of a relation with others.

	04-08-2004 02:10									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oh I forgot, no need to use espionage as you are way ahead. I use it in a game where I cannot keep up like mainly a sid game.

	04-08-2004 03:05									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think I'm just going to sit back and wait for the spaceship. It seems like a logical choice.

Okay, so, I've created a list of things I should focus on...

1-Spacing cities closer together so no tiles (or very very few) are wasted.

2-Building more marketplaces/cathedrals/colosseums (I always build temples though)

3-Keeping out of civil disorder

The cities to the far northwest though are so unproductive I can't really do anything with them. I only got that many improvements in Nineveh because I rushed them.

Any other tips that anyone can point out?

	04-08-2004 04:10									#15
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Well, I am officially signing off now to be gone for four days. (No civ3 for four days...nooo!!! )

When I get back I hope to see many good tips...and then i will play my first Regent game. I may even make a story out of it if I can install a better paint program.

Cheers.

	04-08-2004 04:42									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bob rulz 2-Building more marketplaces/cathedrals/colosseums (I always build temples though) The cities to the far northwest though are so unproductive I can't really do anything with them. I only got that many improvements in Nineveh because I rushed them.

Be careful not be too literal on #2, the city needs to justify each one.

If a city is totally corrupt, it cost you little to go ahead and use citizens as specialist. You could make a bit of headway will civil engineers to get in courts and such.

ROT (rule of thumb) as just guidelines, not gospel, so they need to adjusted in some cases.

	05-08-2004 14:06									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Remember that to be successful, each trick, strategy etc needs to be adapted to the current situation.

Like settler pumps, they can be really powerful but you better forget them if you don't have enough land to take advantage of them.

City spacing is important.
In general, unused tiles is much worse than overlapping. Overlapping can in fact be a game-winning strategy. Try to see into the future when placing cities.


Don't be afraid of reloading now and then to help the learning experience.(just don't do it if you are in any game where reloading is prohibited). Make 'time-machines' by saving before any crucial decisions.


One more thing:
Take notes.

I know it sounds a bit over the top but it can be really helpful if you want to analyse the game afterwards. Keeping large amounts of saves can also be helpful, it will also catch much more details than notes can.

	05-08-2004 18:36									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

On that last note, I try to keep a save at the end of every turn, beginning in the middle ages, and before that, I pull the autosaves into a permanent folder. To avoid an inordinate amount of clutter in my save folder, I keep them separated in subfolders by game, such as "Germany IV", "PTWDG II", "Iroquois I", etc. I also number even the starts I throw away and keep the 4000 BC save, just in case. It makes it very easy to go back and review a game, critique yourself and what have you. If I ever get brave enough, one day I may post a particularly embarassing save from my early days just to give you all a good chuckle.

	08-08-2004 05:36									#19
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Well, thanks for the tips. I can play Civ 3 again! I have the game open right now, and I have more than a few cities in disorder...I just noticed that all the cities in disorder are highlighted in red in the Domestic Advisor screen. Well, I'll keep these tips in mind. I have a save approximately every 50 turns or so, and I do keep notes, mostly on who has what strategic resources and how many.

	15-08-2004 06:27									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't really have any trouble with Regent. I don't get everything I want, true, but I'm usually on top by a longshot. This, compared to Monarch, where my ass just gets handed to me on a platter. I think this is when the AI cheating starts taking effect (They build faster than you, research faster than you, even all trade together in deals they'd never accept from you). I'm pretty much stuck now because I want a harder game, but I just can't cope with a cheating AI to such a degree. :-(

	15-08-2004 07:35									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Epistax I don't really have any trouble with Regent. I don't get everything I want, true, but I'm usually on top by a longshot. This, compared to Monarch, where my ass just gets handed to me on a platter. I think this is when the AI cheating starts taking effect (They build faster than you, research faster than you, even all trade together in deals they'd never accept from you). I'm pretty much stuck now because I want a harder game, but I just can't cope with a cheating AI to such a degree. :-(

AI Bonuses
Def Land Units 0 2
Off Land Units 0 1
Start unit type 1 0 0
Start unit type 2 0 0
Extra free support 0 4
Bonus for each city 0 1
Max gov transition 0 4
Cost factor 10 9
AI to AI trade 130 140

Changes from Regent to Monarch are minor, a 10% boost in productivity. AI to AI trading is even less of a difference.

I find that most players that have trouble with Monarch are not managing their empires well enough. This is usually a case of insuffience workers and workers not being used effectively.

Then they fail to expand quickly enough. If you do those two things you will out produce the AI and win in the end.

	15-08-2004 07:53									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Changes from Regent to Monarch are minor, a 10% boost in productivity. AI to AI trading is even less of a difference. I find that most players that have trouble with Monarch are not managing their empires well enough. This is usually a case of insuffience workers and workers not being used effectively. Then they fail to expand quickly enough. If you do those two things you will out produce the AI and win in the end.

I wish I could believe that. When I play I let everything go random (except map size [large], barbarian activity [least]), including my tribe. First go I won Regent space race. I then disabled it and next run won regent diplo. Disabled it then next run won regent domination. Disabled it, won by conquest. These were all in a row. Now my attempts on Monarch so far have been completely dismal. Now I'm restarting often due just to terrible start positions-- something I never had to do before. I find that everyone is able to out-tech me and not only that-- they do it synchronously. The turn one person gets a tech, they all do, and are at least a step if not two ahead of me. In one attempt I did have a lot of money (I made first contact between the two halves of the random world and made a fortune off of maps) and tried to catch up but even at -46 gold/turn I couldn't keep up-- despite my appreciable empire size.

I do expand like nuts and experiment with such things as making granaries (the thing is, if don't start with pottery, is it worth actually researching it? I doubt it, so trade for it).. I end up expanding much faster than the computer but they typically have a more available landmass where as mine is thin, rocky, or very jungled. I guess it just seems like something major out of my control goes wrong each time. I'll keep trying but given the previous record I had, this ain't good.

	15-08-2004 14:53									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

How long did those failed monarch attempts last? One of the best advice when moving up is to play on, even though you know you'll loose. You can learn more from those failed attempts than you will if you get a lucky win.

I did a small experiment in my last game. Normally I play at Monarch and win *all* the time(I know, I should have moved up to emperor long time ago...). My playstyle is very aggressive, and normally I will reach the point of certain victory sometimes in the early medevial age.

In this game though, I chose to play a more passive game. I won a diplomatic victory in the end but was somewhat surprised by how strong/dangerous the AI would get when I wasn't constantly beating them into submission.

So in order to be successful at monarch, be aggressive. If an AI are becoming a threat, deal with him(but prepare first), get the others to join you and go 100% full military until you have reached your objectives.(general note: while it is both fun and satisfying to wipe someone out completely it is rarely neccessary. Most of the time crippling them will be enough)

	15-08-2004 21:35									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Epistax it is hard to say what is going on from where I sit. I would say it would take a very poor start to not eventually beat the AI on Monarch for an experienced player.

If you have managed to beat the AI handily at Regent, without lots of wars, then I would think you can do it at Monarch.

The timing of when you start to pull ahead is mainly a function of your civ and your start.

It is more common to see the AI get in contact with everone at Monarch than at lower levels and then trade techs. They have a lower threshold for making a deal as you move up levels.

The free starting units lets them jump start their empire and make contacts. If you are using maps with less water they get contacts sooner.

Skip the random starts and use a specific settings until you beat it. That way you can better know what is going on. I don't mean tilt the deck, just keep things the same, except the civs.

Put up some screen shots for a game so we can see if the world is normal.

You just have to get familar with the play of the setting and learn what needs to be done. IOW how long it takes to get ahead in tech, then score. It is hard for some players to play from behind at first and they are not aware of how to proceed.

Knowing where and when you need to make milestones makes it easier to play on.