04-08-2004 06:31									#1
	Preventing Culture Flipping in High Corruption Environments Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So I usually have the problem later in the game that I conquer an opponent's main territory that has accumulated a lot of culture and has fairly populous cities. I want to annex these cities as part of my empire, but I don't want them to culture-flip back after a few turns (or worse, after a long time).

Generally, if the cities are close enough to my capital and I am not too large, they will have a fairly low level of corruption and I can build some temples, libraries, or coloseums to start accumulating culture of my own.

However, for those cities on my outskirts, how can I effectively prevent culture flipping? Sometimes I just sell all the improvements for whatever I can get and abandon the city to found my own. But of course, this is not an option with a city that has a Great Wonder, as I'd like to keep the wonder for myself.

Sometimes I would disband units in those cities to build up quick infrastructure, but this can be costly if I disband all of my offensive units and a strategic sacrifice; it can delay subsequent wars until the next round of tech is available; slowing my overall expansion.

Are there some techniques that I can use to prevent flipping?

I have thought about the following:

1. Depopulate the cities of their former inhabitats by building lots of settlers and workers. The new population growth will be my own citizens, reducing the chance of a flip.

2. Population "bomb" them by instructing many of my native workers to join the cities, diluting the effect of foreign citizens.

I haven't tried these.

Do these work?

Are there other techniques??

	04-08-2004 07:56									#2
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I reduce the population by taking all workers off the land and starving them down. This is cheaper than rushing workers/settlers.

adding settlers to them might be a good idea (I have never tried it). It would be at least twice as effective as the above suggestion.

	04-08-2004 18:47									#3
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Starve them down to 1 pop, build a temple or other cultural building epending upon your Civ's aprticular attributes.

If you get that done before it flips, you have a better chance.

But it all depends upon how much more (or less culture) that CIV has.

	04-08-2004 21:56									#4
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You could always just disable cultural conversions when you start the game.

	05-08-2004 04:52									#5
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another thing I like to do is conquer the enemy capitol

	05-08-2004 04:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator You could always just disable cultural conversions when you start the game.

I never do this. Not sure why. It doesn't really factor into my game. But I think it provides a little more challenge for the human player, so I keep it in. I don't want the game to be too easy now.

	05-08-2004 05:15									#7
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If conversions were limited to non-recently conquered cities, I'd leave it on, as I think it's an interesting concept along non-hostile borders. Watching recent conquests flip every other turn, though, is just kind of like spilling a bag of marbles and trying to gather them all up. It's always a city deep in my new territory, unconnected to the parent civ and any resources, staffed with a rifleman or guerilla. The city's going to be mine again this turn or next anyway, so why bother.

	05-08-2004 05:49									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Starve'em.

Or, better yet, try your hand at Fascism or Communism, and rush cultural improvements like mad... it's amazing what 20+ pop can do for you.

(Nasty warmonger tip of the day: When doing this, seed the build with a captured Worker first. In my head, it goes something like "Alright people, I'm gonna shoot this piece of cr*p worker in front of y'all, so you will work that much harder for me getting these buildings I want built, until you are DEAD DEAD DEAD." It's effective. )

	05-08-2004 06:49									#9
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That's great except for the "two turns after you take it" flip.

	05-08-2004 07:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi That's great except for the "two turns after you take it" flip.

I've never had a flip that fast.

	05-08-2004 07:36									#11
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Man, I have, and when I had dominant culture, to boot.

	05-08-2004 07:52									#12
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I just rush libraries and univs.

	05-08-2004 16:48									#13
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My understanding of culture flips is that adding workers and settlers does not have any impact, it is the number of non-native pops that count, not as a proportion of total. This seems to me counter intuitive, and I used to pop bomb captured cities to try and avoid flips. I guess that it is only dependant on total native pops to avoid the human player doing exactly this.

There is a better and more detailed explanation in the strategy guide links and the top of the Strategy forum, and if i could post links to it, I would.

	05-08-2004 21:05									#14
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Given number of groundtroops should prevent flipping, period. Not just "lessen the chance of flipping".

Something to add to cIV...

	05-08-2004 21:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The pirate My understanding of culture flips is that adding workers and settlers does not have any impact, it is the number of non-native pops that count, not as a proportion of total. This seems to me counter intuitive, and I used to pop bomb captured cities to try and avoid flips. I guess that it is only dependant on total native pops to avoid the human player doing exactly this. There is a better and more detailed explanation in the strategy guide links and the top of the Strategy forum, and if i could post links to it, I would.

settlers and workers should work. But you can't add captured enemy workers- they still retain the original nationality.

	05-08-2004 22:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Given number of groundtroops should prevent flipping, period. Not just "lessen the chance of flipping". Something to add to cIV...

It's already there. I believe you can reduce the chance of revolt to zero for any city if you add enough troops.

Someone made a calculator for this but I'm too lazy to find it.

	06-08-2004 00:44									#17
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Hmm, I was under the impression, that the number of troops has quite small effect on flipping. I've had a SOD (a Lot) of tanks in 12sized enemy city... Which flipped. It was half of my friggin army!

	06-08-2004 04:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident another thing I like to do is conquer the enemy capitol

So do most of us, but how does conquerig their capital help against culture flips?

	06-08-2004 09:08									#19
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it should help right? They have to start from scratch in terms of their palace accumulating culture. Though other culture buildings in other cities will still retain their accumulated culture.

	06-08-2004 22:05									#20
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Usually the capital jumps to the next "best" city which probably already has tons of culture.

On occasion you can capture all around a land locked capital to prevent it from trading resources or luxuries. I did this once, although not by design. My attack on the capital withered and died, but I was able to capture the surrounding cities. WW was killing me so I sued for peace. Later I tried to trade for 1 of their 2 horses that they owned but I noticed that there were no luxs or resources of any kind available.

	06-08-2004 23:00									#21
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The keys to avoiding culture flips:

1) Remove "culture pressure" from the city in question. This means pushing back the other civ's borders via capturing or razing nearby cities. So if you go capture a civ's capital (high flip risk), make sure you get the surrounding ones as a buffer too. And of course rush a temple or library.

2) Starve (or poprush) to 1pop, then let it repopulate.

3) Have solid civ-wide culture yourself

Or better yet, wipe out the civ you took the city from.

HINT: if you face an opponent with a 1-tile island city (untouchable until marines), stop before you make that their last city, and demand it for peace. 20 turns later, wipe out the city you let them keep.

-Arrian

	08-08-2004 03:54									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Arrian pretty much nailed it.

Remember that building temples and libraries in a ton of recent conquest also does wonders for your own cpt total. It's amazing what a bout of warmongering can do for your culture.

	09-08-2004 01:35									#23
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2 tanks outside the city. If it flips take it back.

	09-08-2004 10:15									#24
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If you experiment with the flip calculator you will see that probably the most important factor is the number of tiles in the full 21-tile area of the captured city that are under AI civ control. The obvious strategy then is to squash resistance with a substantial garrison for the first 3 turns, then rush culture as quickly as possible to minimise the number of tiles under AI control. At that point, you will probably be able to eliminate the flip possibility by stationing a garrison of 10 or so inside the city. Of course, this assumes you are not too far behind in total culture compared to the AI civ in question.

Using this strategy you should generally be able to survive from turn 10 onwards.....but there's virtually nothing you can do to prevent a flip in the first few turns (apart from stationing re-capturing troops outside the city) unless you have sufficient garrison, which in some cases may be about 60 or 70.

	16-08-2004 10:48									#25
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Why don't you just rebuild you palace to a city that is betwen where the capital is now and the dense area of fringe cities?

	17-08-2004 05:43									#26
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rebuilding a palace is a huge waste of shields . No enemy captured city is worth that.

	17-08-2004 06:08									#27
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Sure, if you do it with shields.

	17-08-2004 20:36									#28
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Surely an army is more valuable

	17-08-2004 21:00									#29
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It all depends. If I've already hit my limit on armies, not really. If I'm below my limit, but still have a few empty armies waiting for units, the overall efficiency boost may make the palace jump more worthwhile. If I'm playing peacenik ( okay, okay, just pretend for a second) or going for SS, the army is less valuable.

To be honest, though, I agree with you in most cases, and was referring to both leader rushing and disbanding and refounding the capital, the directed free palace jump.

	17-08-2004 21:03									#30
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Ah, that works too.