05-08-2004 04:51									#1
	Mission year 2124: we got IA. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Switching to wealth gives us 4 more energy per turn and it now takes 5 turns for techs down from 6.

We can choose Bio Genetics,Progenitor Psych,Doctrine Mobility, and Applied physics. I think the call is Bio-Gen right?

Our headquarters goes from 6 energy per turn to 8 per turn. We seem to be getting +2 from the switch to 4 econ.

Morgan Industries can be switched to a crawler at a loss of 2 minerals. It will have 11, and we can rush the crawler there or 44 to full completion.

Morgan Metallurgy is 2 turns away from building a Cpod, and it is size 2 now, I'd assume we don't want to change that.

Morgan Vulcanology has 8 minerals towards a CP or crawler.

Red Fungus Resort has 9 minerals towards a CP or crawler.

	05-08-2004 04:54									#2
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We can rush the Cpod in Morgan Metallury, and a Crawler in Morgan industries for the cash that we have(44 for the crawler, 11 for the cpod, both to completion).

As for the chart, we are above everyone but the AI players.

	05-08-2004 04:57									#3
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Finally, the Gaians are running planned, the angels,Gaians and us are at 5 pop, and the spartans are at 4 pop.

And the Hive is ignoring our transmissions.

	05-08-2004 10:42									#4
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Thanks for the summary, Whoha.

Absolutely, Biogen, for HGP.

I haven't opened the turn, but I think Mor Vul needs to switch back to the nutrient bonus.

	05-08-2004 18:49									#5
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A crawler will give a return of 2 mins/turn. A base square gives a return of 1 min & 4 energy (assuming 1 energy lost to inefficiency) in addition to supporting a unit for free. Therefore, CPs are preferable to crawlers. I presume we will build 3 CPs from now until we get the HGP.

What is the number of minerals at which an extra min costs 4 energy instead of 3? We will be rush building many units with a cost of 27 minerals. Which is the optimal number of minerals to rush it at? It will be >10 mins <17 mins (cost is 25 energy). I'd set it when each extra min costs 3 energy instead of 4. We will be rush building a lot, so will want to get the most out of our joules. We also have wealth now, and might slow down our tech a bit if we need the money.

3 of the 4 bases should make a CP. If Morgan Industries is the odd man out, then switch it over.

	05-08-2004 19:00									#6
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crawlers give us the HGP though :P.

I think the plan is to rush 3 crawlers and then cps. We are getting 17 energy per turn right now also.

quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Thanks for the summary, Whoha. Absolutely, Biogen, for HGP. I haven't opened the turn, but I think Mor Vul needs to switch back to the nutrient bonus.

that will cause growth sooner(2 turns as opposed to 4) and lose some 1 energy and 1 mineral/per turn towards a crawler/cp. Of course A switch is inevitable unless we rush the cp, but I'd like to wait 4 turns.

	05-08-2004 19:48									#7
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Once you hit 10 minerals, units are less than 3 ec's per mineral. What I usually do is try to understand at each turn what bases will be past 10 mins, and figure out how much rushing costs at each base. If I can rush everything, I do, but if I can't, I calculate what gains the most resources for the money... like arginine just said about crawlers versus bases (especially if you count the worker and wealth, which makes it 2 mins, 1 support, and maybe 6 energy). Only in very rare circumstances do I not rush something (past 10 mins) that I can afford.

I think we'll have plenty of money to rush the CP at MorVul in 3 turns, so I'd rather grow in 2. It will gain two base turns at the new base (4 mins, 12 energy!), and two crawler turns if that's what we build after the CP. A major component of the benefit of rushing is that everything else you build there in the future will come out sooner, too.

	05-08-2004 21:14									#8
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sounds good then.

	06-08-2004 03:58									#9
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I thought we were going to get 6 or 7 bases, and then build some crawlers. We talk about that here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=119253

but we didn't reach an agreement.

I say we rush Morgan Met's CP. If Morgan Industries will grow soon (~3 turns) grow it, and decide which base will make a crawler. We should switch all our bases to forests if they don't have a monolith or special to work. If it has more than 10 mins, rush it.

We might want to have another person besides the CEO be able to complete turns. We are the slowest faction on taking turns...

	06-08-2004 04:14									#10
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Yea If Chaunk hasn't checked in do the turn yoda.

	06-08-2004 06:03									#11
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Chaunk hasn't posted in other games so I think Yoda will infact have to play this turn.

	06-08-2004 08:14									#12
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Ok, I'll start it right away... just got back from work.

	06-08-2004 08:27									#13
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I meant as in another person able to take the initiative and take the turn. Right now Chanuk has to consistently play a turn every one or two days. If there was another person around, he won't have to be so punctual.

I would envision giving jtsisyoda the authority to complete turns on his own without waiting for Chanuk to be late. A quick summary of the turn gets posted here so it's not like anything disastorous will pass by the rest of us.

I consider the turns right now to be pretty routine.

	06-08-2004 09:05									#14
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Mastery is in seizing every opportunity and treating nothing as routine. That I learned from chess.

****

I altered the plans a little and I think we'll be happy with the result.

Mor Ind will continue with a CP and RFR will switch to a crawler. This will gain two base turns at the upcoming western base, a total of 6 minerals and maybe 16 energy for that benefit alone. (This assumes we commit the former team for just a bit longer-- all three have to work to road to the base site.) Also, Mor Ind will not have to work a two nutrient square for the next 10 years, since it won't be at size two... so working forest instead will gain 10 minerals. It can also work the energy bonus just like the crawler would have. It won't lose two minerals for retasking to a crawler. RFR can start on a second crawler two turns earlier than it would if it built a CP, gaining maybe two energy then two minerals. The first crawler out of RFR will spend one turn on a river getting two energy, then one turn on the energy forest, then re-home to Mor Ind and continue on the energy forest. We lose just a bit from the delay on the first crawler rollout, not benefitting from the node for two more turns, the travel and rehoming, but it's on the order of 10 energy. As you can see, that pales next to the list of gains above.

Populations:
Gaians: 5
Angels: 5
Morganites: 5
Spartans: 4

*****

Next turn, 2125...

RFR can rush the crawler (40 ec?). Doctors at Mor Ind and Mor Vul. Scout disbands at Mor Vul. Start crawler at Mor Met. Former team roads west until the site on the river is roaded in 2138, just in time for the CP out of Mor Ind.

*****

Then for 2126...

Rush CP's at Mor Ind and Mor Vul (around 25 ec each). Doctor at RFR, and start another crawler there.

Attachment: 2124_screenie.jpg
This has been downloaded 40 time(s).

	06-08-2004 09:09									#15
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Whoha edit: and arginine end edit, it might be problematic if Chaunk and I both had a green light at the outset for playing the turn. We'd inevitably end up with two turns to post, and we shouldn't put ourselves in that position. It doesn't seem legal. Sometimes we post the turn so others can review it, which I think is good practice. And then since Chaunk and I are available at different hours, one can start it, then the other can modify if necessary and post to the turn tracking thread.

The end-turn save...

Attachment: acdg3-morgan-2124_endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 06-08-2004 at 09:21

	06-08-2004 09:14									#16
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quote: The first crawler out of RFR will spend one turn on a river getting two energy, then one turn on the energy forest, then re-home to Mor Ind and continue on the energy forest.

Actually, we can rehome it twice... the crawler can go on the river next to Mor Met, then it can rehome to Mor Met and work the energy bonus (this rehoming might save an energy or two from inefficiency), then re-home to Mor ind and work the energy bonus again.

	06-08-2004 09:16									#17
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quote: ...gain two base turns at the upcoming western base, a total of 6 minerals and maybe 16 energy...

Actually "total" is not accurate. Everything the base builds also gains two turns of doing its thing.

Sorry, I'm nitpicking my own posts.

	06-08-2004 09:27									#18
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I don't recommend rushing the CP at Mor Met right now. It completes on its own, just barely, the last 5 mins this turn. We could rush that for 11 ec's, which is usually a pretty good deal, giving us a head start on the next thing it builds. But I think we'll barely be able to afford the CP and crawler rushes that are coming up in the next two to three turns, so I think it's better to let it barely finish and use the money for the other things.

	06-08-2004 09:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by arginine I thought we were going to get 6 or 7 bases, and then build some crawlers. We talk about that here http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=119253 but we didn't reach an agreement.

I thought 7 bases before HGP was more or less what we were going for. There didn't seem to be much objection to that. If anyone has other opinions, now's the time.

	06-08-2004 11:00									#20
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No objection. It will be interesting to see whether we have the "drone bomb" (© and ™ by Kody) or not. In the minigame, it must have someone else, I get execptionally few drones on expansion.

	06-08-2004 12:54									#21
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I thought the "drone bomb" was the violent act of re-ordering the global base list to induce new riots where there were none before, by disbanding one or more of your own bases.

	06-08-2004 17:03									#22
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Right, and that implies that one faction gets a different "distribution" of drones than other factions. I've had games where a 7th base caused two "droned" bases, one or even zero. (Maybe it caused drones somewhere else instead?)

So the "drone bomb" is always lying at least at one faction depending on everyone's base founding sequence. That's what I meant.

	06-08-2004 19:02									#23
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Hmm, I checked out some saved games as morgan on a large map, and the 7th base causes 2 drones... From what AniD's saying, we could get 0, 1 or 2 drones from the 7th base. We don't know which.

So, we can limit ourselves to 6 bases and be safe, gamble with a 7th, or crank up psych to pacify drones and go for 8 bases.

Last edited by arginine on 06-08-2004 at 19:42

	06-08-2004 19:45									#24
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The way beauracracy drones work, the 7th base on a medium or large map might cause a drone at zero, one, or two bases. If you do a search in general/strategy/help (or the Hive forum for the last DG-- this was all discovered by Grandmaster Kody) for beauracracy or drone it might turn up.

	07-08-2004 18:23									#25
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good work guys. Although in my opionon our next goal is to build HGP the turn after we get biogen. The more bases we have, the better, but we NEED that project. That is our first priority. We have IA before the rest, we should use it to the max. We don't know if the others have started projects yet ...

greetz.

I think the Chaunk Yoda sequence is not bad. Normally chauck gives a sign that he cannot play so then there is no problem. I'm just wondering why he didn't do it this time. Hopefully not bad news.

	07-08-2004 20:31									#26
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Well tecnicaly we want to build it JUST BEFORE anyone else gets close, that keeps our crawlers out in the field longer. We should direct ALL crawled Energy (from the 3 Energy Bonuses and any Solars on Mt Drouge) into Our HQ so we dont losse any to inefficiency AND pump as much energy into our Node as possible.

I think we still have time to pump out more bases before the other factions come close to Building the HGP. New bases could build Tanks to accelerate their growth (if cash permites) then pop out a crawler and contribute it to the HGP.

Also I asume we will be using un-upgraded crawlers as Kody has done some excelet work demonstrating that they are infact the most efficient method (unless someone can argue that a Cash Rich Morgan is a differnt situation)

	07-08-2004 21:38									#27
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Wealth is part of the advantage of IA. We are using that now. CPs give a better return than crawlers (3 mins and 7 energy & 1 supported unit vs 2 mins). Also, CPs give back 10 mins (sort of)

Per mineral upgraded crawlers are cheaper per min, but
unupgraded crawlers compensate by bringing back more minerals.

Are we going to have the brand new bases build formers first, crawlers then formers, or will they even build formers?

What are we doing with that mineral guzzling scout? I thought it was just insurance against a worm we killed.

I just realized that the other factions can see that we are using wealth and therefore must have IA.

Last edited by arginine on 07-08-2004 at 21:47

	07-08-2004 21:58									#28
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I believe Minute Mirage was actually the innovator on the superiority of quantity over quality for using crawlers to build early SP's.

If you're rushing crawlers at every city, every turn, and still have enough to upgrade, then do it. But even Morgan would probably have to be silly lucky with pod cash to get that rich.

For HGP, it has the immediate benefit of allowing us to build more CP's. New drone-free bases provide more resources than crawlers, so for HGP, I think we should build it just as b-drone problems start to sap our resources. For projects like VW, ME, CN, etc., I agree it's good to build them just before anybody else, but without infiltration that can be hard to judge.

	08-08-2004 00:21									#29
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I moved the scout back onto the road so it could be disbanded toward the CP next turn.

Re: Arginine's excellent question... formers are cheaper to rush with the first 10 mins, obviously. I'll have to open a turn to evaluate former vs. crawler more thoroughly, though. It will depend on available ec's, growth-timing for building CP's, how many roads we still need, etc. After HGP, getting to the second b-limit ASAP is probably top priority. That may mean a quick former build followed by a CP. With extra cash we might squeeze in a crawler build. Then we'd need to reassess our available land to see if we want to go to the third b-limit before PTS. That timing will also depend on how long others have had IA.

Yes, the other factions can see we have IA. They have a choice of either racing to IA so they don't miss out on all the SP's, or going for exploration and conquer techs, effectively giving up on SP's. If they go for IA, we gain peaceful isolation, and if they go for anything else, we gain SP's.

	08-08-2004 01:14									#30
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The alternative would be of course to keep 2 crawlers per base while insta-building the HGP and cash in those crawlers together with some few more for the PTS as soon as every size 2 base has built a CP and is finally down to size 1. By doing so workers (1/2/2 with the odd 2/x/1 without rectanks) replace the mineral crawlers (0/2/0) on forests.

Advantages: We look stronger on the powergraph (Hive...), each new CP is a very good investment and we would simply be able to do more in the same time (support 2nd former/base, more industry, more research, more credits for rush-building, perhaps even a rudimentary military).
It worked very well in the minigame and I am extremely satisfied. Despite trading a few techs I never had to wait more than five turns for a new tech to be researched, mostly four.

Disavantages: Expansion will be generally slower since formers need to prepare future base sites (it took me about 17 years to second b-limit), if you say PTS you almost need to say Dem next against b-drones and lose 10 free minerals (although three workers usually need 2-3 turns to make 10 minerals...), we look stronger on the power graph than we really are and the tactic is known from the minigame.