03-02-2005 12:55									#211
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quote: And Latvia has never seen any 'influence' from US side as well.

This is not completely true as US is influencing all the world and Latvia as well.
But we're quite happy that the influence is not that of IRAQ..

In answer to both Commys posts I can say:

1.Im not claiming to be very clever, but to say Moon has clouds is un-intelligent at least, so you shouldn't be the person saying that Im overestimating my knowledge.

2.Europe is not "dis"ed because it does not try to spend its influence more and does not make up fake Casus Belli against other countries.

Did you find any WMD in IRAQ - nope and I bet all of your covert agencies were aware of that.

US is a badboy, because with its actions it hurts many people's feelings. This is the reason it is hated.
It has too little of a morale and ethics and too more of a pure greed and will to power.

3.In reality it is no way how could US stop to participate in international conflicts. It has been going for it and building up for it ever since 1917 when the politics of isolation where dismissed by US government.
And in fact some international conflicts has happened or are still happening only because US wants so.

Its not simple but your govenment feeds it to you in a simple way and you blindly believe in it (meaning Commy here).

	03-02-2005 13:32									#212
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin 1.Soviets were extraordinarily brutal to anyone, not only Nazis.

I agree, but your point is at best a semi-sequiter to my own. It's fine to make that point but quoting me simply confuses the issue.

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin 2.The talk was bout who made more effort not moral, it's clear that a government of a really powerful nation is very rarely taking moral and ethics in count - they just pretend to be doing so and it's called propaganda. In WW2 numbers decided the most and if you count them, I think the picture is clear..

You are not allowed in good faith to determine "the issue" in a rambling multipage thread which has already gone way, way off topic more than once. My point is in relation simply to the bit I quoted. We have already argued about the relative contributions of the various sides in WW2 but you were too emotional and incapable of reading english well enough for the conversation to really benefit me. (Not that my russian is nearly as good as your english, which is pretty good.) I wasn't learning anything except for what I could infer about the Latvian educational system. Those who are interested in our exchange can read it for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

	03-02-2005 13:43									#213
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quote: You are not allowed in good faith to determine "the issue" in a rambling multipage thread which has already gone way, way off topic more than once. My point is in relation simply to the bit I quoted. We have already argued about the relative contributions of the various sides in WW2 but you were too emotional and incapable of reading english well enough for the conversation to really benefit me. (Not that my russian is nearly as good as your english, which is pretty good.) I wasn't learning anything except for what I could infer about the Latvian educational system. Those who are interested in our exchange can read it for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

1.I understand that arguing over Internet is no use, because many persons would just ignore if they dont want to read something. Im also quite sure now that most people start arguing only to express their agresiveness and "knowledge" (not meaning you), not to show a different viewpoint..

It's very sad.

2.About my emotionality - you made a few sentences which were very emotional as well and those enraged me.
Many americans believe they made great effort in WW2, but for me it was like you saw someone will fall and wanted to take your share of it at the same time preventing USSR claiming all the Europe..
Germany was defeated in 3 battles - Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk (in which it lost 6months of military production - data by UK scientists, documental movie "Battleground").
If it won any of them, US would help in its defeat, otherwise it was only a question of time for German capitulation and a question of strategy to take some territory in Europe and secure US from being in range of USSR..

	03-02-2005 18:27									#214
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I was talking about direct influence, BinTravkin. For in essence everyone influences everyone by his/her mere existence.

	03-02-2005 18:32									#215
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Yeah, like you influence my mind now and it's trying to make up something to answer you..unsucessfully..

	03-02-2005 20:32									#216
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Here is my main problem with large government conspiracy theory: Large Government.

When it comes to getting the mail or processing our taxes, everyone swears up and down that the US is totally incompetent, inefficient, and unimaginative. Yet if we are talking about the very same government faking landings on the moon, suddenly they are sophisticated super sleuths, capable not only of tricking thousands of non-fringe scientists and engineers, but also keep every single person involved totally silent about it, even on their dead beds.

If the US government was this good at staging historical events, why didn't they stage the finding of "weapons of mass destruction" to the world? By comparison, that would have been a cake walk to fake and would have did a lot more for foreign reputation.

Do I believe that governments will lie to the public? Absolutely.

Will they go out of their way to omit or cover up evidence? Yup.

Has the US government put satellite tracking devices in our dental fillings? Some how, I just don't see it happening.

	03-02-2005 21:18									#217
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quote: Some how, I just don't see it happening.

Your eyes are blinded!
(actually I as well have found no reason to believe in it)

But about efficency-inefficeny thing:
You know, there is such things as focus.
If you focus very much work and very much money (and I mean VERY MUCH) on something, I think you will succeed.

And actually they are not so sophisticated - at least they didn't trick me and many other individuals outside US..

You can look back to your (was it your?) example of Japan - noone knew Japan had jets until some time ago they discovered all those plans and stuff..
It's 50 yrs and noone or almost noone was even suspicious about that..

	03-02-2005 22:23									#218
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Didn't they had them from the Germans?

	03-02-2005 22:57									#219
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Didn't they had them from the Germans?

Yea, jets were no secret. We even capturered a german sub bound for Japan with jet engine parts on board.

	03-02-2005 23:19									#220
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quote: Yea, jets were no secret. We even capturered a german sub bound for Japan with jet engine parts on board.

Hehe, you naughty amercians, how dared you!

But about secrets - I think there's still some things unclear about WW2 after more than 50 yrs.
And it might be because someone tried to hide them..

	03-02-2005 23:37									#221
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I would be surprised if the larger population ever learns the real interesting history. That is, if they're even interested.

	03-02-2005 23:55									#222
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin But about secrets - I think there's still some things unclear about WW2 after more than 50 yrs. And it might be because someone tried to hide them..

Indeed. Soviet tanks wouldn't have stood up well on the German front, were it not for the good ol' US made trucks we gave the USSR, bringing in all the materiel needed to prosecute the war. Oh, and we supplied some of that materiel, as well.

So, let's all remember we can learn from history, and everyone, and I do mean everyone has their own side.
B5 Reference: "The Vorlon said understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth."
If you and another are on opposite sides, then it is likely that Truth lies in the middle.

Warm Regards,
Ka Plewy

Edit:moved apostrophe.

	04-02-2005 00:06									#223
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ka Plewy If you and another are on opposite sides, then it is likely that Truth lies in the middle.

Or someone has pulled a big leg on both sides...

	04-02-2005 03:33									#224
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alright everybody, first off, the clouds that I was talking about, I was referring to the ones on earth.

No offense, binTravikin, but I didn't think I would have to indicate that I wasn't talking about clouds on the moon, I assumed that everybody would get that, but apparently not...

The clouds on earth do reflect a lot of light. Whether it is enough to completely block out all stars, I don't know, but it certainly enough to dim them a little...

	04-02-2005 13:24									#225
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quote: The clouds on earth do reflect a lot of light. Whether it is enough to completely block out all stars, I don't know, but it certainly enough to dim them a little...

Well the talk was going on about the stars on Moon, so when you mentioned clouds I assumed you think there are some on Moon. If you read more carefully there was not a single sentence about stars on Earth, except that they can be photographed on Earth (so why there are no stars on Moon landscape photos?).

	04-02-2005 13:47									#226
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Here is my main problem with large government conspiracy theory: Large Government. When it comes to getting the mail or processing our taxes, everyone swears up and down that the US is totally incompetent, inefficient, and unimaginative. Yet if we are talking about the very same government faking landings on the moon, suddenly they are sophisticated super sleuths, capable not only of tricking thousands of non-fringe scientists and engineers, but also keep every single person involved totally silent about it, even on their dead beds. If the US government was this good at staging historical events, why didn't they stage the finding of "weapons of mass destruction" to the world? By comparison, that would have been a cake walk to fake and would have did a lot more for foreign reputation. Do I believe that governments will lie to the public? Absolutely. Will they go out of their way to omit or cover up evidence? Yup. Has the US government put satellite tracking devices in our dental fillings? Some how, I just don't see it happening.

A little information theory goes a long way.

	04-02-2005 14:27									#227
	I shall have your files on Orbital Spaceflight (D6), and I shall have them now. Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Well the talk was going on about the stars on Moon, so when you mentioned clouds I assumed you think there are some on Moon. If you read more carefully there was not a single sentence about stars on Earth, except that they can be photographed on Earth (so why there are no stars on Moon landscape photos?).

Granted that the question is worth answering, scientific method requires you to come up with more than just assertions based on the starless photos that the entire Apollo program was a hoax.

I'm assuming you're discounting Apollos 11-17 (including the infamous Apollo 13), but what about Apollo 8-10? Has man orbited the moon? How about Apollo 1? Must we assume foul play, that the astronauts knew too much, and had to be blown up on the pad?

Has man ever been in space at all? This amazing webpage reveals all the assertions you'll ever need whenever you run out of tinfoil:

Soviet Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin was never in Space

(http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/gagarin.htm)

BTW, I've worked alongside one of the old timer engineers of the sixties, and he told me of the big layoffs after Apollo shut down. The tech job market collapsed in the mid-1970s, and he had to go into restaurant management! No, an entire generation was recruited to put people in space, and on the lunar surface. This isn't some cheesy Capricorn One stunt. Tens of thousands of highly educated people were employed.

Not to sound all Republican, but maybe all this rant against the moonshots is just your envy of another country's achievements. You're welcome to your illusions, but do not fool yourself just for your own comfort's sake.


Maybe the "lunar hoax" business is simple generational envy. No one today has done better than the '60s generation in that respect. It's frustrating that it's taken so long to revisit this zenith of exploration.


But hey, the first submarine was built in 1620. That took awhile to catch on, too.


Oh, and the stars seen in space are in the same positions as on Earth, or the Moon, to the naked eye. Every photo could have been easily faked.


Almost all the stars would even be in same positions over the skies of Chiron. It's just not that far away.

There would only be two major differences: The suns of Alpha Centauri, and one new star in the sky: Sol.


GFC

	04-02-2005 19:48									#228
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quote: But hey, the first submarine was built in 1620.

Actually in 1353 by Mongols somewhere near Black Sea

quote: Oh, and the stars seen in space are in the same positions as on Earth, or the Moon, to the naked eye. Every photo could have been easily faked. Almost all the stars would even be in same positions over the skies of Chiron. It's just not that far away.

Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern?

Earth moves, Moon moves, Chiron moves.
So if you stay on the pole of Moon/Earth/Chiron you wont see the same.
You may see familiar figures, but they will be turned in different angles so at first glance you may not recognise them.

And about the link you gave - quite interesting, but I cant find anymore about this theme (once did a search).

	04-02-2005 19:52									#229
	Remove this text

Two paragraphs I liked the most..

quote: A British team of researchers who questions the propaganda surrounding manned journeys to the moon also confirms this information.

quote: The CIA knew about the Gagarin bluff but said nothing. Instead they have come up with more and more ridiculous lies themselves. (Juri Lina, Architects of Deception. The Concealed History of Freemasonry. Referent Publishing Stockholm, 2004. p. 26-29).

	04-02-2005 23:37									#230
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern? Earth moves, Moon moves, Chiron moves. So if you stay on the pole of Moon/Earth/Chiron you wont see the same. You may see familiar figures, but they will be turned in different angles so at first glance you may not recognise them.

The change in the positions of the Earth and Moon have negligible results on the relative positions of stars. For any view of the stars on the Moon, there is a place on Earth that has that same view at some point in the year (excluding the Sun).

	05-02-2005 00:19									#231
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern?

What are you talking about? What difference? I just came back from the southern hemisphere (and been there five times already) and they didn't look different to me. I could see a lot more of them then at home here due to a lot less light pollution down under.

Or are you talking about constellations ?

	05-02-2005 03:00									#232
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Star constellations don't immediately change when moving from one hemi-sphere to another. North pole vs south pole produces huge differences, but moving from Mexico to Peru, you will, for the most part, see the same things, just at a slightly different angle...

...as far as a fake moon landing...well, it sounds very similiar plot to Deception Point by Dan Brown...

	05-02-2005 16:52									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Commy ...as far as a fake moon landing...well, it sounds very similiar plot to Deception Point by Dan Brown...

Or the Seventies feature film, 'Capricorn One' :

Would you be shocked to find out that the greatest moment of our recent history may not have happened at all?


" At NASA's Mission Control, the first manned space flight to Mars is about to blast off.But as its three astronauts (James Brolin, O J Simpson and Sam Waterston) await their historic voyage, a mysterious man enters the craft and insists they leave. He explains that the spacecraft is dangerously flawed. The mission, however, must be seen to go ahead, otherwise the government will stop funding the space programme. In a television studio the astronauts are coerced through threats and bribery to make a broadcasts as if they were on the Red Planet.Everyone seems to accept this, except for journalist Robert Caulfield (Elliot Gould), who becomes suspicious and sets out to find the truth..."

http://www.mywickedgames.com/dvd-capricorn-one.htm

	06-02-2005 00:58									#234
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Fund and Police are unacceptable, imo. Stuart Mill said that in order for the human race to 'flourish', people must be free to deviate and show the masses 'the way forward'. This requires a FREE society: and that means Demo.

Free Market leads to the strongest economy, but does the most eco damage. Planned is good for economy and doesn't do too much damage (the best choice for balancing). Green leads to a weak economy. How can you hold the economic or military hegemony if you're weak? Planned.

(We'll begin to see Demo/Planned type states in about 30 years in europe. At the moment, they're all Demo/Free Market, though not heavily free market.)

My ideals are always in anything that helps humans to flourish. But at the same time, I want the country I'm living in to be able to defend itself. Knowledge is romantic, but not a good choice until all states become demo and stop attacking each other. For the time being: Power.

Future: Cybernetic & Eudaemonic. Both would be ideal, but if I had to choose, I'd go with Cybernetic. Anything that gives me improved longevity and ability for leverage is a plus. Though Control is too sinister.

	06-02-2005 01:42									#235
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Demo, Free Market, Knowledge, Cybernetic...

-5 police
-2 support
-2 probe
-1 planet

If you are playing the angels like I do, the probe is cancelled out, leaving you with -5 police, -2 support, and only -1 planet...not bad, especially with probe teams...

	06-02-2005 02:09									#236
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Ye Gods, an actual answer to the actual original topic. I'm stunned. Shocked, even.

quote: Originally posted by sufthingol Fund and Police are unacceptable, imo. Stuart Mill said that in order for the human race to 'flourish', people must be free to deviate and show the masses 'the way forward'. This requires a FREE society: and that means Demo.

Well, no argument there.

quote: Free Market leads to the strongest economy, but does the most eco damage. Planned is good for economy and doesn't do too much damage (the best choice for balancing). Green leads to a weak economy. How can you hold the economic or military hegemony if you're weak? Planned.

Who says that Green leads to a weak economy. In game terms Green is highly efficient, saving lots of valuable energy credits in the long run. Planned, however, is quite wasteful - your industry may become a powerhouse, but the treasury won't exactly be filled up.
I'm not saying Planned is the weakest, but both Green and Planned are fairly resilient in different areas of the economy.

quote: My ideals are always in anything that helps humans to flourish. But at the same time, I want the country I'm living in to be able to defend itself. Knowledge is romantic, but not a good choice until all states become demo and stop attacking each other. For the time being: Power.

On the other hand, Knowledge gives you a neat little boost in the arms race, which never hurts, whereas Power leaves you with a crippled industry.

quote: Future: Cybernetic & Eudaemonic. Both would be ideal, but if I had to choose, I'd go with Cybernetic. Anything that gives me improved longevity and ability for leverage is a plus. Though Control is too sinister.

Question: What is this "ability for leverage"?

	07-02-2005 16:40									#237
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Leverage? +2 support at the least.

	07-02-2005 23:19									#238
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AS a neigbhour of americans people, and knowing lot of them ( I mean the ordinary american or the middle one) since they like to come in Montréal as tourists, they feel in a mix of an european/north american cities and Montréal is the only place in north america where you can feel that


My point is that most of those peoples are ignorants and they all believe what they're governement is telling them.
They are under constant propaganda. My TV reception cable receive 10 americans news channel, (CNN, ABC, NBC, etc...) I've seen so much horrible things (desinformation) that I could not even imagine before, it's so worst than any media I looked before (actually mexico have a better rate that the US does for liberty of press, U.N. 2003, USA still 35th on 193 country.)

This mass manipulation is all cautionned by usa governement.

We could give lot of example like that, to blame usa, and this is sadly true.

The USA our parents knews under Wilson, is now a things from the past.

	07-02-2005 23:28									#239
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No comments.

That's what all the world thinks about US, only some individuals from in there try to prove it's not so.

If they're reading this, my best advice to them is to not waste their time trying to argue about it - it's simply obvious.

World knows what's happening in US - we're better informed about yourselves than you do, so dont try to prove opposite and claim that you're still one of the most democratical countries or something equally nonsensible..

	07-02-2005 23:51									#240
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I go about my day without any police interference. I can congregate with others as I see fit. I post my views freely in public fora and read others views. I know enough to not rely too strongly on any particular news source. I do not blindly trust my leaders. I do not live in fear of crime. There are stupid people, but I can oppose them.

Yep, this America is horribly oppressive.

By the way, I have access to just about all the media sources you do, thanks to the internet. No matter how bad American media may be, the people are not oppressed by it when there are other options.