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Ka Plewy
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quote:
see what I mean about ignorance. |
No nation has a monopoly on ignorant citizens. Nor any ideology, for that matter.
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
[SIZE=1] I just say that to believe that D-Day was something important is foolish at least for a strategical viewpoint.
And people actually believe it and other **** like that.
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I fail to see how this relates to ideological discussion. Regardless of the might of the Russian military at the time of D-Day, D-Day is still very important. Without the invasion of Fortress Euroupa the war would've been protracted. Remember, Hitler kept forces committed to the western front to prevent invasion Without threat of invasion and the ensuing invasion, some of those forces could've been thrown at USSR. If you are truly a student of history as you claim to be, you need to remember that the historian's most important tool is the context of events. If you distill the event away from the other events surrounding it you can arrive at just about any conclusion (which you're doing quite well). So claiming D-Day was not important is completely silly and just demonstrates your lack of serious academic research, casting your entire history of posts into similar light. How can I trust the statements you make, when you can't even understand the importance of historical events? Note, I'm not arguing that D-Day is the most important event of WWII, I'm arguing that D-Day is an important event, period. Other important events of WWII: Battle of Britain, Stalingrad, Pearl Harbor, Ardennes (Battle of the Bulge), Midway, North Africa, there are more, no doubt and all must be taken into context.
I feel it needs to be said that your plea to end this argument/discussion is completely disingenuous, because if you really wanted to end it you would've made a 10 word plea (or not responded at all!), rather than a 350 word essay defending your position.
Regards,
Ka Plewy
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:33
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Yeah, and taking into context, especially the numbers involved, I see not much more importance in D-Day than invasion of Italia..
The latter at least brought Italians out of war..
And you forget to mention Kursk. If you compared German and USSR numbers before and after that, Im sure you would get the "context" Im talking about.
IMHO It was the last battle for Germany, after it Hitlers fate was decided.
Actually someone else is cropping D-Day out of context making it "the glorious and decisive Allied victory over Germany".
For me it was a marauder run, as Germany was defeated by that time already.
If you read my "essay" more carefully instead of saying all what I said was "silly", you could comment it..
Im not silly, just disgusted how some people believe in the "White Knight" figure of US. If you read this thread from the start, you could see more stupid things mentioned here as what Im saying.
And not by me, but by a few amercans, who think they know history.
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Ka Plewy
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Originally posted by binTravkin
And you forget to mention Kursk. |
I left many unsaid, which is why I said "there are more, no doubt." I'm not the only one who has trouble reading, apparently.
You play the most common of games in an argument/discussion. When your ability to support your statements comes into question, you switch the argument around, or add unrelated conjecture. Your statements are not substantiated, (mine aren't either for that matter). However, I seriously doubt that you can substantiate your claims. I challenge you to do so, with serious academic research.
Note, you've proven my point, you don't want to end the discussion/argument, you want to win it. Well, the gauntlet has been cast. It's up to you to win it. Should you respond without serious academic research, you only serve to reinforce my point. If you do provide proof, I will gladly provide my proof (I have at least 30 books on WWII, while not exhaustive by any measure, should at least demonstrate I'm well read, and before you nitpick that I've read only 30 books, please note I have read many more than that!).
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:33
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quote:
I left many unsaid, which is why I said "there are more, no doubt." I'm not the only one who has trouble reading, apparently.
You play the most common of games in an argument/discussion. When your ability to support your statements comes into question, you switch the argument around, or add unrelated conjecture. Your statements are not substantiated, (mine aren't either for that matter). However, I seriously doubt that you can substantiate your claims. I challenge you to do so, with serious academic research.
Note, you've proven my point, you don't want to end the discussion/argument, you want to win it. Well, the gauntlet has been cast. It's up to you to win it. Should you respond without serious academic research, you only serve to reinforce my point. If you do provide proof, I will gladly provide my proof (I have at least 30 books on WWII, while not exhaustive by any measure, should at least demonstrate I'm well read, and before you nitpick that I've read only 30 books, please note I have read many more than that!). |
Well, yeah. Ok. I understood. I suck you know all etc..
Maybe my english is not so good to cover all your topics, but I will just point out that I found 3 topics in your last post - "context", "events", "my essay".
I answered to all and what I've got in answer?
That Im playing some game.
I play no game.
You play the game of " 'forgetting' things" in the first place and the game of "not answering, just making accuses" in the 2nd place.
Read back in this thread, you're not the first to do so..
And bout reinforcing your point - I will reinforce it further by resuming from this thread.
Your point is always having a one way ticket when someone touches your patriotism..
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Ka Plewy
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Few things for binTravkin
Patriotism <> Ideology (context of this discussion). If you were questioning my patriotism, I hadn't noticed. I thought this was an ideological discussion
Nowhere, have you given proof for your claims. None. What. So. Ever.
Your English is good enough to carry an argument, and score you some points, but when points are scored against you, you immediately say your english isn't very good, and that you suck. Self-deprecation may work in a conversational argument, however in a written forum, it does not.
Ultimately, all you do is make assertions, when someone else makes contradictory assertions, you don't necessarily respond to those, you instead extend the argument into other directions, each one, arguably, more fantastic than the previous.
If I'm not the only one saying this, then perhaps, just perhaps, there might be a shred of Truth to what we're saying.
I never brought patriotism into the argument. I responded to a comment about the parts all the Allies played in WWII. You discounted the US part, while placing the entire winning of the war on the USSR. Pulease. When I point out that the Russians had considerable help in that process from the US, I was ignored, and the argument went into alleged lies the US government attempts to perpetrate on the world, and its own citizens. (And how the entire world knows they are lies, except for US citizens). PuhLEASE!
I would desperately love to see some of your historical evidence, besides your assertions.
Back up your assertions with some evidence!
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
Yeah, and taking into context, especially the numbers involved, I see not much more importance in D-Day than invasion of Italia..
The latter at least brought Italians out of war..
And you forget to mention Kursk. If you compared German and USSR numbers before and after that, Im sure you would get the "context" Im talking about.
IMHO It was the last battle for Germany, after it Hitlers fate was decided.
Actually someone else is cropping D-Day out of context making it "the glorious and decisive Allied victory over Germany".
For me it was a marauder run, as Germany was defeated by that time already.
If you read my "essay" more carefully instead of saying all what I said was "silly", you could comment it..
Im not silly, just disgusted how some people believe in the "White Knight" figure of US. If you read this thread from the start, you could see more stupid things mentioned here as what Im saying.
And not by me, but by a few amercans, who think they know history. |
D-Day was much more important than the invasion of Italy for several reasons. Getting the Italians out of the war was of dubious value, as they did more for the allied cause by their unpredictable behavior then they contributed in combat capability on numerous occasions. The small number of German troops necessary to defend the small front made up of good defensive terrain managed to tie up inordinate numbers of the Western allies few combat experienced formations, and did so at a profit in terms of casualties.
D-Day on the other hand threatened to bring France back into the war. It also forced the Germans to defend a huge land area which was made up of largely good offensive terrain, which forced them to use their valuable panzer formations under a withering umbrella of allied air power operating out of England and later France itself. The absence of these formations had a huge impact on Soviet operations, culminating in the destruction of Army Group Center, an offensive which was planned to coincide with the landings and one which would have been impossible (in terms of the great success that it achieved) had the panzers been on hand to react and stabilize the line. It immediately brought the Western Allies closer to Germany's production centers than the Soviets were, and by September had culminated in the loss of most of France, the destruction by attrition of the panzer formations sent against the Western Allies and the destruction of all the other line formations in the West by encirclement.
Kursk was a set piece battle which was not important in terms of geography. For the Soviets it was a defensive battle which their excellent intelligence allowed them to prepare for for months ahead of time. It was a battle of attrition which destroyed the better part of a year's worth of German tank / crew production, but the complete lack of strategic goals made the outcome more a question of Hitler's strategic incompetence than a triumph of Soviet arms. It was a large strategic mistake by the Germans and the Soviets made the most of it with the operational skill and tactical competence. The effect was felt in 1944 when the German losses contributed to their collapse on both fronts, but there was no important immediate gain in territory as the Germans still had enough force to hold their lines in the East until D-Day forced them to transfer assets to the West.
As for Germany being defeated by 1944, as a strategist I'd say the Germany was probably defeated by the time they declared war on the Soviet Union and certainly by the time (only 6 months later) when the declared war on the United States. They were at war with 3 powers who all produced more aircraft than they did. In fact the U.S. produced more aircraft than the British and the Soviets combined. The Soviets had at least twice as many tanks as the Germans at the start of the war, half of which were the equal or superior of any German tank, and they maintained a large advantage in production throughout the war over the Germans.
Were it not for the war with Japan the Germans would have been finished at least a year earlier. I encourage you to read about all phases of the war with an open mind as I have done for over 35 years. You are correct in your admiration for the Soviet's determination and sacrifices during the war, as well as your admiration of Soviet skill at the level of strategy and the highest operational levels. But your paranoid delusions of Western cupidity have only a grain of truth to them. I've seen them before for many years, and they remain exactly the same now as they did during the cold war. There are similar narratives in the West, such as the fantasy that we could have walked over the Soviet forces in the immediate post war period, and you'll find me arguing the opposite on the rare occasion when those arguments are put forward in Off Topic.
Your knowledge of history even when we limit the discussion to WW2 is a lot less complete than you think, and it is obvious to me who has read more and given more pertinent thought to the issue. Your knowledge is at best mediocre for someone who wants to discuss WW2 on these forums while your bias is at least as bad as the worst of those who you castigate for bias. That isn't a good portent for your ability to catch up in the knowledge department as while reading is important it is no substitute for the ability to judge and use the data with an open mind.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:33
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Well, you can't go wrong with America and its problems. But let's be fair. America has a HUGE government and federal organization. Heck, there are more federal government organizations in the US than there are people in most countries. So when you have that kind of beauracracy, you have lots of problems, so many that Americans just could honestly care less about all of the frauds and mistakes. That's why there's SNL and MTV (its an American thing).
When you people dis America, you really need to be dissing the government, not the people, not the military. The American people don't control everything the government does. Yep, that's right you Europeans, even you don't control everything your government does. So you can't blame America, but you can blame the Bush administration and you can blame the government, that's it.
Saying that most of Americans are ignorant thinking the US is the best country is partially true, in that most Americans aren't informed enough to make that decision. That doesn't mean they are wrong. Its like guessing on a test. You may not know the answer but you can still get it correct.
On the other hand, my European friends, how do you know that America isn't hard at work protecting your nation from terrorists? You don't, and we don't either. But it is very possible that "the fuzz" has prevented numerous attacks, and just let that one out of 100 get through, such as 9/11. American's may have issues, but America was the first modern democracy. While unlikely, you Europeans could still be serving Kings and Fascists without a little American influence. America has its issues. Forget about America being the best country, you can't deny Americans have done quite a lot for the world, and that includes Europe, so next time a fascist attacks Europe, I'll sit back and laugh at you "superior Europeans" on CNN while I play SMAC...
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOWar2
Since 4 soldier on 5 of the NAZI army were figting the Red Army, (80% of the german army were defeated on the eastern front)
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You're confusing your statistics, and your political organizations. Not all soldiers were Nazis. Also, in most of the statistics I've seen, it's 2 in 3 soldiers of the German Army were on the Eastern Front, at the most, at any point in time. So, once Germany opened that front, the bulk of her forces remained there. Now, I will accept 80% of those soldiers were casualties.
Without D-Day, or even the threat of D-Day, Germany could've committed all of her forces to Russia, and ground both countries into the dust leaving someone else to pick up the pieces. I don't disagree with the fact that Russia played an important part of the war, in fact, I believe that Germany attacking Russia was the biggest mistake, leading Germany's ultimate defeat. Germany failed to plan for cold weather operations, didn't have strategic bombers to bomb factories, and didn't understand the control Stalin could exercise, moving factories, and towns wholesale across the country to keep them away from the front. However, one shouldn't automatically discount the value of D-Day, or the threat of D-Day, because it divided Germany's attention which was definitely a big deal. This is my entire point of context. If you're going to eliminate D-Day from the equation, eliminate it properly, as if US never entered the war, Germany sued Britain for peace (and was accepted), and then Germany could concentrate entirely on Russia. That is the only true way to determine the value of the D-Day operation, and it's entirely moot, because it's entirely impossible to measure, unless you're capable of travelling to an alternate reality to watch those series of events to unfold.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:33
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Just because you went to Germany or Russia doesn't mean crap...
I'm an American, but that doesn't mean I know the most about American politics. Honestly, I wouldn't trust either source, because it wasn't the allies army, and germany and russia were too corrupted, or in the case of war, screwed up to care how many soldieres "were official". All that matters was they had a gun...
Go ahead, take America off the world, let it play isolationist...I laugh at you Europeans, you call us ignorant, so maybe we are, but you are arrogant, and foolish...
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOWar2
Just consults their national archives.
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And do you have a specific place for me to look, since you've done it yourself? Give me the book, and I'll look it up, until then, I'll just chalk your statements up to anti-americanism. Don't forget, England (Canada, too) was an Ally. So these are YOUR accepted numbers, too.
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ManOWar2
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quote:
Originally posted by Ka Plewy
And do you have a specific place for me to look, since you've done it yourself? Give me the book, and I'll look it up, until then, I'll just chalk your statements up to anti-americanism. Don't forget, England (Canada, too) was an Ally. So these are YOUR accepted numbers, too. |
I didnt personnaly looked for it. Look what I wrote. A political scientist specialist, "doctor", did it and I know him so I was able to talk about it with him.
I dont care about what canadian governement will say about it and I'm sure england will tell the same things than USA. otherwise it would be stupid to do it... no need to explain.
I personnaly trust more the german officials army statistics than what the USA can tell about it.
You call me anti-american ? why ? what did I make ?
Is this really serious ?
lol haha come on, you a kind of extremism "patriotist" that will keep his eyes blind even if his governement is become more and more radical, or even lying to you. (wont start to talk about on what the usa governement lie with americans people, sorry, they always get angry and react like you are) Just because it's not correct to talk against the usa ? (I have nothing against americans, except if you are one of those 80 millions extremist evangelical christian, if it's the case I wont talk to you again)
pathetic.
If two regime with some hate toward capitalism were "corrupted", what you think about a true capitalist state ?
Any way the USSR wasnt corrupted much than US, if you think not, you are blind and know nothing about USSR. Actually propaganda and misinformation are really common toward USSR because it's in the USA interest and always been in capitalism interest. (what is funny is that USSR stopped to be "communist" as soon as Staline came to power, but no one did the difference, just remind that when Staline came to power, he restablished a market in some area and etc,
for interested people : Deutscher, Boukharin, all other availables primary sources.
(Boukharine was the right-hand of Staline, a right-wing bolchevik as staline were) various small text.
(I think the french traduction wont help you to find those book and I dont know the english one, because I only have the french traduction in my various papers. but look for those autors
ps : No one remember about the failed coup d'État of mega corporation in USA, against the "communist" Roosevelt ? (keynesian economy, this is what lead the american people to prosperity...not good anymore ? ... )
Thanks the general army that stayed loyal to Roosevelt...
This just an example of what is the interest of "capitalits".
Other PS : I'M canadian, from Québec and I speak french.
I have more in common with an american of New England than I can have with a true French. (sorry if I ruin english langage sometime hehehe)
Last edited by ManOWar2 on 11-02-2005 at 06:52
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOWar2
You call me anti-american ? why ? what did I make ?
Is this really serious ?
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No, I didn't, I said I was chalking your statements up to anti-americanism, not that you are, just that your posts indicate that slant.
quote:
lol haha come on, you a kind of extremism "patriotist" that will keep his eyes blind even if his governement is become more and more radical, or even lying to you. (wont start to talk about on what the usa governement lie with americans people, sorry, they always get angry and react like you are) Just because it's not correct to talk against the usa ? (I have nothing against americans, except if you are one of those 80 millions extremist evangelical christian, if it's the case I wont talk to you again)
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I am not at all angry. Why does my faith have anything at all to do with the discussion, I never brought it up, so you should have no reason to bring up faith. I will stipulate that the government has lied, and will lie to the American people, if not the world.
Yes, isn't it. Attack me, instead of my arguments.
quote:
Any way the USSR wasnt corrupted much than US, if you think not, you are blind and know nothing about USSR. Actually propaganda and misinformation are really common toward USSR because it's in the USA interest and always been in capitalism interest. (what is funny is that USSR stopped to be "communist" as soon as Staline came to power, but no one did the difference, just remind that when Staline came to power, he restablished a market in some area and etc,
for interested people : Deutscher, Boukharin, all other availables primary sources.
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I don't know what this has to do with my questioning your sources on the disposion of German forces in WWII.
This is my problem with this discussion, as soon as someone questions a point, this discussion springs into a new and unrelated direction
quote:
ps : No one remember about the failed coup d'État of mega corporation in USA, against the "communist" Roosevelt ? (keynesian economy, this is what lead the american people to prosperity...not good anymore ? ... )
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What?! I'd love to see your primary sources on this.
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This just an example of what is the interest of "capitalits".
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I think Nwabudike said it best, "Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant. Need as well as greed have followed us to the stars, and the rewards of wealth still await those wise tnough to recognize this deep thrumming of our common pulse."
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Other PS : I'M canadian, from Québec and I speak french.
I have more in common with an american of New England than I can have with a true French. (sorry if I ruin english langage sometime hehehe) |
Yes, I know, you have a CDN flag under your name.
Actually, you have more in common with the typical European, since Europeans tend to discount anyone who isn't a typical liberal (from the US) as stupid for believing differently than they do. However, this is neither here nor there, my political ideology isn't relevant, nor are you correct in attempting to identify it, or my religious beliefs. Keep assumptions about other people out of your arguments, and you make then cleaner, and more direct.
P.S. I'm libertarian Presbyterian, not that it matters. I have even more in common with an American in New England, than you.
Regards.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:33
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So, let us talk about opening our eyes...
This is what I notice about you Europeans...
All you do is claim we Americans are ignorant, stupid, foolish, and watch too much CNN...yet you never mention anything good about Europe, nothing, ever...
I'm not saying there isn't anything good about Europe, but you all seem to know more about American's wrongs than your own country...
All of us Americans support our beliefs with facts, with actions done by America. And not just America, but the American people...
So, some of us our ignorant, mostly because we are sick of your weak arguemnents...
The mark of an intelligent person is one who uses facts and attacks the idea rather than the person...
This could be taken two ways...
Either you Europeans are all stupid and unintelligent...
Or you all need to OPEN YOUR EYES and realize that America has done a lot more for the world than you think...just because Bush is president for 8 years doesn't sudenly make America crap...there are 200 years of American influence that have changed the world, including your little arrogant world, my European friends...
And I thought being a wiger was only an American thing, but no, you Europeans have proved me wrong...
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ManOWar2
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quote:
Originally posted by Commy
So, let us talk about opening our eyes...
This is what I notice about you Europeans...
All you do is claim we Americans are ignorant, stupid, foolish, and watch too much CNN...yet you never mention anything good about Europe, nothing, ever...
I'm not saying there isn't anything good about Europe, but you all seem to know more about American's wrongs than your own country...
All of us Americans support our beliefs with facts, with actions done by America. And not just America, but the American people...
So, some of us our ignorant, mostly because we are sick of your weak arguemnents...
The mark of an intelligent person is one who uses facts and attacks the idea rather than the person...
This could be taken two ways...
Either you Europeans are all stupid and unintelligent...
Or you all need to OPEN YOUR EYES and realize that America has done a lot more for the world than you think...just because Bush is president for 8 years doesn't sudenly make America crap...there are 200 years of American influence that have changed the world, including your little arrogant world, my European friends...
And I thought being a wiger was only an American thing, but no, you Europeans have proved me wrong... |
I'M NOT EUROPEAN.
I'm not anti-americans.
I dont attack the people of USA.
Most of the time it's me who got "attacked" just because I dont agree with "them" or you or whatever...
I'm not european and if there is liberal person on this planet you will find more of them in europe than you can do in USA.
Liberal isnt a "libertarian things" or simply a political party.
Actually, most of all occidental country are liberal, whatever you can say,
Democracy IS a liberal value. So republicans have liberal values too as I have and you probably have too.
And for my other friend : (hehe)
For sure you probably have more in common with an american of new england than me. It's logic...
I still live every day of my life in perpetual contact with american lifestyle and my "lifestyle" is very "american"
I agree with most the americans values and I like american people. (I have see lot of tourists in Montréal, as I visited 5 new englands states... more coming in the next trip 
I was talking about the usa governement lying to you, not for the "topic" we were discussing, but I mean in general.
Maybe americans dont like people from europe, I dont know, but if there is the case, just ask you something,
there is a reason for that.
You may want to know that american is 34th in the world for the "Free Press", behind states such mexico.
Isnt there a "sign" of hard propaganda, media concentration for the personnal interest of a minority.
Much of americans people (probably not the people who come here to talk, I agree) are "ignorant"' and that's a fact.
I just remember that Bush didnt even knew Québec was French and looked really idiot when he was not able to respond to a media question , something like : " Did you knew that Canada have a large part of french community, since canada was first founded by french ?" (could give so much example)
Hello, he is your president and have like 0 knowledge on what happen in the rest of the world...
Anyway, My goal is not to blast american people.
I just hope a day they will see the truth about what happening to theirs country.
And that's a fact,
I dont want to be "arrogant"
but I know the americans history probably more than most of americans and I know basics things about USA that most of USA people dont even know themself.
I guess most of people on this forum are 'intellectual" in different ways, so yes, most of people here are probably not the good "representation" of the typical american,
as I dont look like a typical "Québécois' (French canadians mean "acadians" and other french people in canada, Québécois is more specific )
(most of Québécois are stupid I admit. lol )
I know lot of good americans, but the main problem I encounter with americans people, is there lack of "comprehension" of the rest of the world and what the other people may think as theirs lack of personnal knowledge and there total "blinded" patriotism toward their governement. (On the other hand, the "anti and alter globalization movement are very present in USA, as greenpeace or other kind of those groups, what is actually good I think.)
Well I'm not sure why I'm talking about all those things,
If I were better in english I could talk about much more complicated things, but I'm limited when I'm writting. (normally I can ready everything)
Most of americans may think french people are "anti-americans"
But remember the americans country was founded by the inspiration of the french revolution and those both coutry have lot of value shared.
And it still true in 2005.
Being anti-bush and anti religious extremist is not anti-american.
It's just alarmous when you see the Only superpower in this world with a guy who telling about good and evil, god mission, etc.
It's not really different from religious extremist who call the same argues...
(pls dont tell me this is for liberty and democracy)
Last edited by ManOWar2 on 12-02-2005 at 04:05
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Ka Plewy
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quote:
Originally posted by ManOWar2
I'M NOT EUROPEAN. |
I'm not Republican, nor funadmentalist christian, but you were quick to jump to that conclusion, because of what I had written.
I think that you blend in well with the typical anti-American, European frame of mind. IF someone makes a mistake that you are European, it's because your English isn't your native tongue, and your ideals match those of Europe.
Still, you have yet to provide me with the primary sources about the attempted coup against Roosevelt.
Regards,
Ka Plewy
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ManOWar2
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I agree with most of all I have read.
It's all bout "non-comprehension".
For my other friend again :
America influence may be strong.
but dont be "blind"
America started to left isolationism in 20th century only, mostly because of the "idealism" Wilson doctrine.
They done lot of things, that wasnt necessary good.
American of 1960's, is very different from the american we saw rising after the end of cold war.
New ideology, new fundamentalism vision.. (much more extremism than neo-conservative)
People interest with good texte of Robert Keohane, Joseph S. Nye, Henry Kissinger, Ikenberry ?
I have some good political science paper from Harvard and other "great" high school of USA.
Most of my argue and most of the things I'm saying here or anywhere about americans are the common fact recognized by most of all americans specialist in this domain. (there is a minority of neo-conservative writter who dont agree, but most of neo-conservative thinker always make an abstract of fact and just go with their opinion, what is actually not very scientific...okay, human science always have a bit of subjectivity...but we have no choice we still human hehehe)
Send me an email on : michaeltuqam@yahoo.ca
if you want good things to read
I study "political science" so I'm sometimes "forced" to read lot of things.
do we say political science or science political ? or is that a word ?
How you call this field of study in english ? thanks
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ManOWar2
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I must admit I dont know the "official" data for the number I told you.
Will ask next thursday to the Doctor (teacher) that gaved me this on a simple paper that he wrote. He may tell me where to look by myself, at least wich "book" or wich 'institute.
But If you speak Russian or german, consult their national archives, I know he got those statistics from there.
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08-02-2005 01:14
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