23-05-1999 18:06									#1
	* The need for further Organization... Please Read * Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Dominique said:

quote: I won't comment anything on this thread interesting as it is, but instead will urge you to put up a real information site! Seriously, it's not readable anymore - lots of threads, references, ideas, and on and on... no one but those who read DAILY can understand what's going on right now. Please, please, let's get going with that site! And in that process, maybe we should do the same thing as was proposed for Clash characters: Nominate "provincial leaders" who are responsible for certain aspects of the game. You cannot do it all, and it is no use for all meddling in everything, really. What is needed is a clear concept and a VERY clear overview over what people are involved, how to contact them etc. Let's call the people with certain areas of responsibility "dukes" for the moment (to stay within the picture) - each duke should care for HIS area (coding, economy system, unit balance, gfx, whatever), which means he constantly updates a defined page in the Clash site in which everyone can see - what has been decided and is a fix concept now - what still is to be discussed This list being chronological and with links to associated aspects of the other duke's terrains Why I am SO intent on this is very simple: I feel to set up a good information site on Clash is more or less the proof we can get organized at all. Or, in other words: If we don't even manage to set up a decent, well-structured site, we should forget about the project, anyway. Last thing: It would be a bit easier to attract competent people IF we had a decent site

I agree with your comments on getting the web page going etc. But we Have no Champions (dukes, demi-gods or whatever) for virtually all of the areas. Do you remember I asked you to be one, and what your answer was?... That is true for most of our core memebers so far. Hrafnkell has taken on government and tech as a champion and should have something more formal to present soon... Manu has taken on the culture. That leaves me with the rest, because nobody else wants the jobs. To be fair 'F_Smith is working hard on the interfacing etc., and you are doing artwork on a variety of topics, and JimC has exams, and also explicitly said at the beginning that he would primarily do AI coding. But nonetheless, you see the problem. We need to attract people with a variety of skills, including organizational skills, but we are having trouble because of a lack of people with organizational skills...

Well, can you summarize the graphical design area information? (You see what a mess my summary was) Will you be a "provisional champion" for that area until someone else comes along? I'll see if xiane or Blade Runner (How about it if you're reading?) are interested in taking on something. I have gotten queries from people with organizational skills at an earlier stage of Clash who never followed up... I can try to get them in again. And I can, myself if necessary, get to the kind of syntheses of information you need for a page, but it Will Take Time if its mostly just me. For the moment, why don't you start setting up the new web page so it a) looks better, and b) is ready to have new content poured into it.

-Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited May 23, 1999).]

	23-05-1999 18:33									#2
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Okay, Mark, you've got me

I agree to become "GFX duke" if you want me to do that.

But of course, we should define the tasks of the dukes (I really like that phrase, with you being the Emperor ).

I see the following:

- being primary person of contact for the relevant ideas / comments / questions
- compiling all comments on the relevant area and bring it in well-structured form on the web site (I can easily implement some functions so non HTML experts can update the pages).
- organizing who will finally do what.

Although the Clash organization surely shouldn't become as rigid as in a business company, some degree of "office" must be there. No use in all bringing every idea to you, really. You can't cope with it, right?

So the dukes should act as filters and compilers in the end.

Ah, yes, and since I haven't seen any web professional here yet, this leaves doing the site to me, I suppose

	23-05-1999 19:03									#3
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Dominique:

Glad to hear it, your ducal magnificence, you sure walked into that one .

Yep, you're stuck with the web stuff for now too... hopefully you won't be wearing all those hats for very long.

All:

But seriously, I think Dominique's model will work well. When things are proposed to be locked in the responsible 'duke' should post them, and if there isn't a wide uproar within a few days on that topic it will become spec.

The dukes should let the group know by a post when a big "lock-in" decision is being made.

-Mark

	23-05-1999 19:14									#4
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Thanks for the invitation!

I think that about all I do have to offer is organizational skills and (I hope) broad interests and the desire to help make the best reasoned (and still most fun) game possible. That's the caveat, I'm not a programmer, nor particularly adept at web stuff, but tell me what you think I should do and I'll give it a go.

How long would it take to learn Java...

Xiane

	23-05-1999 19:42									#5
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xiane:

Welcome to the project . Don't worry, plenty of organizational skills Will be needed from start to finish.

Probably the thing we are Most needing right now is someone to oversee the military/combat system. Its an area of Huge importance in the game. (Possibly at some point the duke of military might need 'counts' to handle all the sub-issues) If you don't want that job, I guess Economics would be the next big area. And the interface/graphics area is very big too. (There are already people in this general area so we'd need to discuss it. I don't know if F_Smith is into writeups, however Dominique is clearly overworked...) If you're looking for smaller jobs, or none of my suggestions appeal, just say what you'd most like to do in a short ordered list, and we'll see what we can do.

IMO if you've picked up a few programming languages java is pretty easy to get going in.

Again, welcome officially, and glad to have you in the group.

-Mark

	23-05-1999 20:04									#6
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Fine, fine, fine...

Now, to really get things going, I'd rather do some web stuff first. What I have in mind is a site that offers

- general information about Clash
- one sub-site for each of the "ducheries" , so you, Mark, will have to define these first.

Mark, if at all possible, could you send me a general structure layout (tree) showing how the site should be organized?

Sure I can't do it all within 15 minutes again - we will want to have a guestbook, a news page etc., and all this takes it's time if it is to look good. But we need to get started. In the end, people will only get to support the project if they have the feeling "wow, there really IS something happening here!".

One mope thing: Yes, I know that I'm a graphics freak and that most of the others (including you) are much more concerned with the game concepts (and rightly so), but you shouldn't forget that most people are VERY visually oriented, so the are much more interested if something is presented bearing a cute face (why, do you think, are we designers so much in demand?). Maybe you aren't very comfortable with the thought, but the truth is that you "get" the people waaay easier with some fancy graphics than with an elaborated economical model - initially, at least.

So if we want to attract people who really could help with the project, we better let the site look great.

	23-05-1999 20:27									#7
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Dominique:

I'll get you a list a topic areas soon. I have no problem with you calling yourself a duke, but I think calling me an emperor is a bit pretentious Just make sure that little tidbit doesn't get onto the web page...

As to the site structure, you probably have a better idea than me how to lay out a successful web site. My suggestion would be something boring like the current one so I think you're stuck with that one.

A great looking site is certainly Very important for attracting artists which is our biggest shortage right now IMO.

-Mark

	23-05-1999 20:58									#8
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Mark,

I have no inclination of doing a revival of nobility here, but I like "dukes" better than "section masters" or whatever you'd call it. Anyway...

a) Have you any site you especially like in mind? So I can use it as a model?

b) No, I DON'T know how you want the structure to be - please keep in mind that it's my task to present a GIVEN CONTENT in a nice way, NOT to do it's structuring. I can advise, sure, but the basic structure must come the one who brings the content - in this case, at least initially, that's YOU

	25-05-1999 01:55									#9
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Mark,

I got an invitation from you a couple of weeks ago from you. I was unfortunately too busy to do something more. I'm back for a moment, but I'm in the middle of a moving from a flat to a house. I need to shut down my internet connection of the end of June and I will be back in the beginning of August.
I think I can help to design the scenario and map interface part of the game. I checked the java description. Luckily we can use a built in parser to read any information from a .txt (or any text) file. I did before a few similar system, (I mean parsers) of cours in much smaller scale.
I think we need to produce the two layer of the game from the fist minute. The "hard coded" layer with the most time comsuming parts (like AI, GFX rutines, etc.) and the "soft coded" user modifiable parts with easy to read and write text files and documentation. I have an idea to use a "middle layer" with java code but source and documentation included for professional add-on and scenario makers. This of cours just an idea. I would like to ask everybody who interested for the project to feed back. Which is good which is not. Maybe new ideas?
I can help to do the user mod parts for the game. In this case I need to work together with the programmers. (i.e. I find a few parts in the last version where the system use hard code to fill arrays. This can be make with modifiable txt file and a parser easyer.)

Blade Runner
(Zsolt)

	25-05-1999 02:06									#10
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Hi, Blade:

You're completely right -- we'll be using parsed .txt files for ease of use.

When we have an architecture meeting to firm up all the details and get all the coders on the same page, you should bring all this up. This is exactly the sort of details the meeting will need to sort out. I'm no expert at 'object-oriented' design of graphics, and I'll need guidance as to the "best" way to build certain modules.

Jim will also likely be able to help us with the structure as well. He seems pretty good with object-oriented structure.

We'll likely have a demo ready a short time after that meeting.

	25-05-1999 02:59									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

F_Smith,

There is a common problem with the CIV like games. The gamers lack the real possibilitiy to change everything which is need them to produce groundbraking add-ons or scenarios. I think the game designers and programmers first do the coding part, after they put the const part in text files. We need to work from the opposite direction:
1. We need to develop a function library with basic functions and the main user interface.
2. When this part is ready we need to write our middle layer code to put the whole thing together.
3. Write the rules, graphic descriptions in text files.
4. This way we have a BIG advantage: we can easily modify (balance) the game without touch any part of the hard coded and already debugged function parts.

IMHO the closest for the ideal is the two new CIV like games the SMAC and the CTP, but even this two games have a lot of problems.

I suggest a system which use a hard coded event loop for the user input and the AI function callings, etc., but provide "user hooks" for us and for the users. The user hooks start our java functions. We can add the source code and description of these functions in the end product to provide a sophisticated "macro language" (THE JAVA LANGUAGE) for the users. (This was my "middle" layer idea in my before reply.)

Just quickly the most important things what we can (and need) provide for the users to modify:
1. The rules of the game.
2. The unit, wonder, improvement, etc graphics and/or movies.
3. The interface keyboard shortcuts.

For the average users we need to include an easy to use scenario maker complete with a basic graphic editor.

Blade Runner

	26-05-1999 02:42									#12
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Anyone interested in volunteering for one of the Many available jobs?

	26-05-1999 03:16									#13
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Mark,

I wouldn't like to promis something what I can not fulfill. I'll get back my internet connection in the beginning of August. After I will be ready to do some work. I can help until the end of June (exactly 20. of June) too. If that is OK I can start to work on the text files, scenario editor, etc...

Blade Runner

	26-05-1999 06:18									#14
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Blade Runner:

Sounds good, we'll take it! Sorry we'll lose you for a bit...

-Mark

	30-05-1999 04:00									#15
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As long as the group leaders are going to be "Dukes", and since Mark doesn't care for "Emperor", and since someone once referred to him as "our Sid", how about this title?

"El Cid"

	30-05-1999 06:00									#16
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LOL, but my laughter should not be constued as an endorsement of this proposal .

	04-06-1999 18:10									#17
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Mark:

Don't know what I can do to help but am willing to try. Am more of a generalist than specialist, but I do make a good gofer,(gofer this, gofer that).

But seriously, I am a lousy programmer, little basic, more of home/hobby lvl.Can occasionally pull scattered elements together.

So put me down where you think you can use me, preferably in mil or interface and let me know.

Rebel

[This message has been edited by Rebel (edited June 04, 1999).]

	04-06-1999 18:30									#18
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Rebel:

Glad you're interested . Why don't you check out the more recent Mil and Interface threads, and see where you think you can most contribute. If its in the mil area, just drop Driud2 and Kull a line. If its on interface, talk to me since for right now everyone else working on the interfaces is on vacation or tied up.

BTW I went to OU undergrad.

-Mark