10-08-2004 04:35									#31
	Inflate your Upload Space

I thought you had said that you lost the game at one point, so I was confused. I thought that you had started over, never mind.

Anyway this looks better, buta big no no is the capitol in disorder.

No temple No colosseum only 1 MP.

Building a wonder needs a few things. You are only getting 13 shields (well actually none right now) while I am getting 18.

The difference is that I see 2 tiles with no road or mine. Another is the wheat tile. Once I got to size 12, I mined it. The extra food was a waste and the extra shiled cut the time to build a bit.

Since I had the Oracle and the MoM, I had no happiness issues. In fact when I switched, I only had two cities that need a single specialist.

You are researching Republic, while I went on to Fuedalism. I know the AI will get them and I can trade for them. Yes they will be slow to give them up, but I will have too much to offer, someone will give it up.

IIRC I was a bit nasty in that Iused a lot of my cash to make embassies before I make a deal. I think Greece ask for 10gpt + 2xx gold and a tech. I then peddle the tech for 15gpt somewhere and soon had all my cash back with a plus gpt.

	10-08-2004 05:39									#32
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In the civilopedia, when it says friendly cities it means all of the cities of the civilization that has it, which is really stupid. It should just say "your cities."

	10-08-2004 05:58									#33
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quote: I thought you had said that you lost the game at one point, so I was confused. I thought that you had started over, never mind.

Sorry for confusing you, I did restart and I thought that you were refering to my current game.

My capitol was only in disorder for that turn because I was trying to see if I could save some money by lowering the luxury slider without going into disorder.

	10-08-2004 07:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by bob rulz In the civilopedia, when it says friendly cities it means all of the cities of the civilization that has it, which is really stupid. It should just say "your cities."

Yes, but it only takes once to figure it out. Actually I am not sure it even takes once, given how all other wonders work.

	10-08-2004 07:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Krak My capitol was only in disorder for that turn because I was trying to see if I could save some money by lowering the luxury slider without going into disorder.

When you do something like that, go to the F1 screen and see what the large cities look like. At that stage you have only a few cities that could go into disorder.


Check them to see if you have at least as many happy faces as unhappy ones. If ot you have to correct it. Use the lux or a citizen, which ever is the most effiecient.

Never end your turn without being sure you have no cities going into disorder.

	10-08-2004 07:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Krak Sorry for confusing you, I did restart and I thought that you were refering to my current game.

Ok that is what I thought. So you are doing much better with your emoire in the second run. A few more concepts added and used will get you in decent shape.

I am not a big trader, but a few occasions did come up and can be the little extra you need to stay on top.

I have been able to keep 3-5 luxs coming in steady with trades of older techs to the civs on other islands. This has let me run only 10%.

Getting a bit of a feel for when to trade or sell a tech to your contients civs is also a boost. It can keep the civs from getting a good research program going by sapping their cash. If you can get a gpt is a good way, especially coupled with taking all the reserve.

Given the games layout a better strategy would have been to go with a bit tighter spacing and make more cities and troops. Skip most of the wonders and bust a few civs. The resource and luxs are not very favorable to USA.

No coal or saltpetter nearby. The AI does not have the tech, so they could not trade, if they wanted.

	10-08-2004 11:11									#37
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quote: Getting a bit of a feel for when to trade or sell a tech to your contients civs is also a boost. It can keep the civs from getting a good research program going by sapping their cash. If you can get a gpt is a good way, especially coupled with taking all the reserve.

I was able to trade chemistry to Egypt for their entire treasury plus 51 gpt

	10-08-2004 11:21									#38
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It is not so much what you got for it as when. IOW as long as it was about to become worthless anyway, then you got something.

The place I stopexpanding I had no coal/oil/rubber/saltpetter.

	10-08-2004 11:39									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I managed to go to war with the celts and snag some saltpeter, although i'm not in the indutrial yet so I don't know about the other resources...

	10-08-2004 21:08									#40
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Yes that is what was required. They sneak attacked me and I was so happy. Once I got the SP I upgraded all my knights via Leos.

Later the Greeks barged in with a stack of about 20 units, but they where mostly MI/Hops and I had a three armies (2 calv, 1 knight). So I was able to annex coal and rubber.

I actually had no trouble getting coal from others before then. A big tech lead makes all things possible.

	11-08-2004 01:02									#41
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Now i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. The babylonians who were my previous ally in the war against the greeks decided to attack me because they were jealous of my mightyness. They began overrunning my border cities and the germans also wanted in on the action. They dropped about 8 horsemen next to my capitol which I slaughtered.

I can produce guerillas in most of my cities in about 2 turns but the problem is that after 3 or 4 turns into the war I go into massive WW and to top it all off, babylon outnumbers me by alot. plus he is only about 1-2 technologies behind me.

So I reloaded 2 turns before the war started and I was thinking about switching to facism or communism to get rid of the WW. Should I switch governments or is there another way out of this mess?

I would put up the save but even a compressed non-autosave is too big

	11-08-2004 01:19									#42
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Hum my saves are in 630K range not zipped. You did not give much info to go on. The year, the tech the layout. Anyway as a rule I do not switch after I go Republic.

One of the issues for a map like this is that you have so many civs that are near you. This means it is hard to defend all possible attacks. Rails are up, so if they have an RoP, they can come from anyway (nearly).

If you want, zip it and email it. Use the same text you post here, so I can tie them together. Please use a slight name change, such as replacing Lincoln for Krak. This will allow me to download without clobbering any save that you may want to see later.

vmxa AT sbcglobal DOT net

A 6mb should zip down to under 5mb. I can handle RAR or WINZIP.

	11-08-2004 01:28									#43
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Have you taken a 20 turn break for peace after wars? This is needed to reset WW. One way to counter that is to have Markets/Temples/Cath/Col and 7 luxs. In metros, you can soon get extra pop to use as specialist.

The problem for the luxs is many are overseas so you need something special to offer. Maya/Aztecs have been lagging and were up for very back leveled tech. Germany was a bit harder to make deals with.

If you got to Comm then add in police stations.

Once you get to a break point in WW, you will have to do something to fix it. A switch is not very tempting as you get maybe 6 turns of anarchy. It can be from 4 to 9, but call it 6 for now.

This time will really hurt. Once you finish I suspect that Facsim will hurt more than using entertainers. If you have communism, that may work, but you still have that anarchy to suffer.

	11-08-2004 01:36									#44
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As to the war with Hammy, I need to see a save to say much. One thing that may be open to you and is my first thought, look to enlist other civs into the war on your side.

This is not so much as to get them to help, but to ensure they do not come in against you.

In some cases they actually send units in a serious way and others they do little. The key is even if the civ is weak, you do not want to see them sending 20 or more units to attack or pillage.

Once tiles are pillaged in a frontline area, it is a long time before they can be repaired and it hampers our movement, not theirs.

I got the Celts in on Greece and then later a bunch came in against the Celts. I never hit the Celts, even thought they were next to me. I wanted to keep using them as a buffer and not extend my front along another direction and thin out my defenders even more.

I kept the Sumerians on my side at all times for the same reason. Everyone had to either take a hit coming into Celts/Sumerians land or come in one direction at me.Even that was enough to keep me busy. I did not want to go to an all out warmonger mode.

	11-08-2004 01:36									#45
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I don't think that it has been 20 turns yet, I could try offering a mutual protection pact which would give me 20 more turns which is more than enough to build up a defense and reset war weariness.

	11-08-2004 01:48									#46
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I don't know what MPP you have in mind, but I would warn against it. At this stage of the game wars will be quite common and you could find you are not able to get out.

The best way is to get peace deals tht include you giving them gold or lux. They will be reticient to attack if they are getting paid and you are strong.

If they have money borrow it and give gpt, then they lose the payment is they attack. Maybe give them money in the peace deal and then sell tech for the cash or borrow it back.

	11-08-2004 02:30									#47
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Ok I have the save, I just wanted to put this out right away.

Stop making Guerilas and make Infantry. They cost the same 90 shields and are same on movement and attack, but Inf are 10 defense and upgrade to Mechs. The AI will not be anxious to attack cities and metros with infantry, but will hit those guerillas.

I do not know if you had a shot at getting Music/Dem/Free or not, but if you could have it would have been a good idea. The reason I say that is not that they are so useful to you, but they are very good for trading and selling and are esy to get first.

Even if not first those overseas civs will not have them.

Current research I prefer to have gone Steam, Ind to get factories. Electricity, Medicine and them Sci Method.

You may slip in replacement parts if you know you have a big lead.
You must be first to ToE. Those two free techs are expensive.

	11-08-2004 02:57									#48
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Ok you have gotten more land than you can handle. I think you could handle it if you get more troops and workers.

I do not like to expand past the point that I can defend it.

Workers, I like to start moving them all to one spot so that when I get steam, I can start a train making rails.

In the end of a period it comes out the same, however in the mean time some tiles are railed. This allows you the free movement and the extra or food now.

So if you gang 20 workers and they can say rail one tile with 4 worker turns, you get 5 tiles railed now. Not 20 tiles in 4 turns. So you get the extra stuff and the movement sooner. I then like to rail key cities together first and then get the other railed together.

Once that is done or nearly so, I will start to go around the edges of the empire.

The only thing that I change in that format is, I will break off a few workers to do a wonder city tiles. I want the extra shields to get Hoovers done sooner. Well actually the hospital then hoovers in some cases, such as this one. I knew the AI had no chance to beat me to hoovers, so I grabbed hospitals.

I break these up for ease of posting and reading.

	11-08-2004 03:07									#49
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By the way at 1745 I already had hoovers nearly done as well as Sufferage. I had a lot less land than you and no civs were out.

So I see only two troop units being built and a firgate.

I do not build firgates and this map I made 2 curraghs (lost at sea), 2 galleys (lost at sea) and one caravel (it is still in the harbor as a transport).

The civs on other lands will never need to be attacked via sea by me, so I do not need ships.

By the time they get forced into a war with me (not by me), they will not be able to do anything. It started about the time I had flight (oh oh, can you say bombers).

You are making coal plants in lots of place and that is not all bad, but I never make them (very rare in one or two cities). In a few turns I would have free hydros so I would spend the shields on something else.


I see 3 cannons in a city that will never be attacked, I would have them at the front line and rail that city first thing. That way I can reeinforce it or move those cannons else where. Well actually they should be upgraded as arties are vastly better.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 11-08-2004 at 03:39

	11-08-2004 03:29									#50
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Now the big item is the leader. This should have gone to an army instantly. This is the thrid army and allows you to build the pentagon. It allows a 4th unit in the army and that is critical for attacking metros without arties (my style before MI or large numbers of infantry).

You cannot make peace right now with Germany as they will not acknowledge you. As soon as I could I would do that.

Now I would take as many workers as I could get and rail to the front line cities. Send defenders with them in a stack.

If you have roaded the slip of land by the capitol you could have the arties paste those ships (well if they were not cannons still).

Switch coal plants to eiher calvs or infantry and a few cities to make workers.

You must get your rating to strong verse all civs now. That is the only way to keep the number of wars down to a manageable number.

Look to cities like Curovernum. It is building a lib with IIRC two shields? Switch it to make one worker when ever it can and then to wealth and go back and forth.

New Orleans is making a factory and it has 7 shields, not for me. It is not growing, switch to a harbor and then a temple. It then could make either workers or settlers to fill out the open spaces.

You have too much distance between many cities and that makes it hard to defend or develop. You will have lots of distance corruption as well.

You have a number of cities that are not managed at all. Seattle is a case in point. It has an aqua, but is not growing at size 6. This has cost you a bundle over time. Why build a duct if it is to be left at size 6? If you have more workers you could have gotten a few chops in to speed those structures and then used the tiles for food.

Get all cities in the core to size 12 soon. Find out why they stopped growing and fix it. Irrigate/chop move citizens to food tiles, what ever you need to do.

I see lots of size 6 cities making a factory. This is not productive. Get them on to something else, harbors temples libs.

As a rule it is not worth it to spend that many turns for such a small return. You will also start the pollution cycle that will be costing you worker turns. This is fine for those nice corruption free core cities, but not some 7 shileds town.

20 more workers would pay for themself and make it possible to defend.

As to the coming war, get units going in a lots of cities. Go ahead and make the MPP with Hammy to stave it off.

Attachment: lincoln of the americans, 1445 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

Last edited by vmxa1 on 11-08-2004 at 03:44

	11-08-2004 03:32									#51
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quote: I see 3 cannons in a city that will never be attacked, I would have them at the front line and rail that city first thing. That way I can reeinforce it or move those cannons else where. Well actually they should be upgrade as arties are vastly better

Yeah I did that and moved them to the from lines.

I guess I still need to learn all the wonders because I had no idea what ToE did or what hoover did. If I had known that I think I would be in alot better shape.

I managed to avoid the war with babylon by signing a MPP giving them corporation but germany still tried to invade me but I defended against them pretty easily.

	11-08-2004 03:32									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry I meant to post 1745ad:

Attachment: lincoln of the americans, 1745 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	11-08-2004 03:36									#53
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Just to be clear the reason to go around the very edges of the empire is to be able to defend and in the case of coastal, to be able to get a chance to use arties on ships.

I use that to drive off those frigates/ironclads until I have bombers.

	11-08-2004 03:50									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Krak I managed to avoid the war with babylon by signing a MPP giving them corporation but germany still tried to invade me but I defended against them pretty easily.

You may have done this, but just in case. Make the deals on your turn, not theirs if it involves you give up a tech.

Once you deal out a tech, it is often wise to peddle it all around.

This is not always the case, but you will need to get the feel for those times. Times when they will not trade or sell it themselves.
If indoubt, peddle it.

If you looked at my save you will see I have few workers myself. This is a bit of a bad play, but due to strict micromanagement and timing I could afford it. This is because the US is industrious, but I would have been better off with more.

Normally I would have razed a few large cities and gotten plenty of slaves, but no razing in this one.

	11-08-2004 12:52									#55
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Looks like I may have just saved my game or doomed it. The babylonians went to war with me a few turns after our MPP ran out, which I knew they would so I was prepared. We fought a stalemate for about 10 turns which during that time I got china and Egypt into the war. Finally WW got the best of me, again. So I withdrew from the war, pissing china and egypt off in the process but I think that they are a little too busy to try anything right now

Now every single nation, except for me, is at war with babylon. I'm pretty damn proud of myself though, I started a world war but this is where the problem lies, I can't enter the war again untill I have tanks (4 turns) and until I switch to communism. If I don't jump back in, babylon will more than likely overrun egypt and china, trippling its resources.

Egypt is losing ground fast, They have already lost 3-4 cities in 10 turns or so. China is managing to hold its own but I can't say for how much longer.

After all this, babylon will probably turn its guns on me and I don't think that I will be able to hold against its trippled strength. Even if I can he will have the higher score and still win the game.

I have been stockpiling on bombers and infantry because I am the only nation that has flight. I plan to target his infrastruture to stall his production and buy Egypt some time.

This is more of just a progress update, I'll post another update when the war is over

It has been pretty damn exciting so far.

	11-08-2004 19:37									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The additional cities will not produce anything for Hammy, it will had unit support though. That will some what offset by the need to garrison tose towns.

Having a large army will slow down his research.

I do not like to use lots of bombers and especially on cities. I used them on shipping, maybe a unit or two. I want to capture those cities intact.

You would not be having WW issue if you have those happy structures in place.

	11-08-2004 23:52									#57
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quote: You would not be having WW issue if you have those happy structures in place.

Happyness wasn't why my cities were in disorder, most of the cities that went into disorder only had 1 or 2 unhappy citizens and the rest were happy.

	12-08-2004 00:06									#58
	Inflate your Upload Space

Not sure I understand what's happening there. Disorder is triggered by having more unhappy people than happy people.

	12-08-2004 00:51									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That wasn't in the case in my game, most of my cities in disorder had a size of 12 but only 2 people were unhappy, 7 or so were happpy and 3 were content. So I assumed WW was causing the disorder.

If it happens again I will post a screen shot.

	12-08-2004 01:42									#60
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I would like to see that. I can't say much as I normally do not let cities go into disorder (I may miss one once in a while). WW makes citizens unhappy, it does not cause disorder in a direct fashion. Rather it is an underlying cause.

AFAIK, you get disorder when you have more unhappy citizens than happy ones. Perhaps you mistook some contented citizens for happy ones?