09-08-2004 03:02									#1
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I just bought CIV3 and C3C a few days ago. In my most recent game with the Americans on 70% water continents, huge, 15 civs and warlord I was doing well until around 10AD. I need some tips on REXing as well because I don't have very many cities.

I have about 12 Cities and my only neighbor is to the north, the sumerians, and they have cut off my expansion because I am on a peninsula. So I have built up an attack force of 4 horsemen, 1 spearman and a catapult in hopes to grab some cities, cut him off and then sue for peace.

If someone could take a look at my save and give me any tips on my attack, defense and expansion it would be greatly appreciated.

Attachment: save.zip
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	09-08-2004 03:56									#2
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You've got seven of your twelve cities building wealth. Why? Wealth really shouldn't be built until well into the late game. You're also using entertainers. Dropping science back 20% and luxuries up 10% allows you to hold at -2 gpt, get those entertainers back into the fields and still research Republic in 10 turns, instead of 9.

Also, your expansion is nowhere near cut off. You've still got plenty of room to grow in the area you more or less control now. I still applaud the idea of beating up on the Sumerians a bit, but your stack isn't going to take more than one city, if that, and you should be building reinforcements already. With the Enkidu, you're not going to be able to catch a city guarded by only warriors. Build more barracks and more units. Oh, and hook up that iron at Buffalo. In the meantime build some vet warriors to upgrade to swords.

You've got a commanding tech lead. Sell them and grab some cash to finance your deficit. You're also in need of more workers, as you have some unimproved tiles that need to be worked (by city laborers). You only have 5 workers for 12 cities. This should be at least a 1:1 ratio.

All in all you aren't in bad shape, but mainly need to build up your military, get more workers in the field and keep an eye on your cities.

	09-08-2004 05:31									#3
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Thanks for the advice, I built a couple more cities and launched my invasion on sumeria and I am doing well. I have managed to capture their capital and have them by the throat. There is one problem, all of the other civs are broke so I can't sell any tech to the, they all have less than 10 gold right now. Although I managed to sell literature to the chinese for around 100 gold which won't last me much longer because now I am in a -12 gold defecit.

	09-08-2004 06:52									#4
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You've definitely got to pick your spot on tech selling. For instance, there's about 250 gold to be had in 10 AD without sacrificing much of your lead. Another thing you could do is slow your tech pace down enough to get back in the black, budget-wise. You've got enough of a lead to do that without anybody catching you, and can buy yourself some time to develop your empire that way.

	09-08-2004 08:05									#5
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Krak, if you use a normal save, you will not need to zip it. It will be about 250k. The autosave is 10 times the size.

	09-08-2004 08:24									#6
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If you look at some of the cities that are like say Seattle. It was founded 50 turns ago and still has no structures of any kind and is producting nothing. It has no mined tiles and only one road.

This is costing you a lot of gold and shields. If you mutliply that time the other cities that are doing more or less the same thing, it would fund the lux and research deficit.

You have Math and Ivory, but are not building SoZ and in fact have no wonders built or started????

The reasoning, I am guessing is you see how long it would take. It would not be so long if you have mines in the key wonder cities.

You can get away with this style of play at the first three levels (maybe), but it will get much harder with a poor start location or higher levles. You will need to be out producing the AI then.

As was mentioned you just cannot justify wealth until very much later in the game. All cities during the first 150 turns need to be doing something useful.

Do you have the 4000bc save? If so post it.

	09-08-2004 08:55									#7
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Yes I have the 4000BC - here it is

I have now ran into a serious problem with the celts, they demanded a tech from me and as usual I laughed at them like I did Egypt. However he decided to take the tech by force, so I signed peace with sumeria and began taking on the celts. Then a few turns later my old enemy allied with the celts against me and now i'm fighting a 2 front war. I see where all that advice comes into play. My cities aren't large enough and do not have enough shields to produce reinforcements fast enough and i'm slowly losing ground. I have already lost my northern most city, Umar(sp?). The only thing that I have going for me is an army although it won't be of much use because I found out the hard way that you can't unload it so now my army has 1 swordman and 2 horsemen in it.

Attachment: lincoln of the americans, 4000 bc.sav
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	09-08-2004 09:26									#8
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True you cannot unload units. If you had all three as horses it would still be an effective army.

I will play the save out to about 10AD to see what I come up with some suggestion.

If the AI gets those AC's coming your way soon, it will hurt.

	09-08-2004 09:48									#9
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I have effectivley lost that game, the celts overran me because WW finally got the best of me so I can no longer produce units and to top it all off, neither the celts or sumerians will respond to my envoys for peace. I think i'm dead?

	09-08-2004 09:51									#10
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Well I just started it, but it is unfortune, I got a settler at 3600bc.

Unless you got one as well. This is just so strong at this level. I have two scouts out and will be meeting others soon.

Attachment: settler.jpg
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	09-08-2004 09:55									#11
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I got a town from the goody hut, not a settler

	09-08-2004 09:58									#12
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Well it is rough to say. As you have seen the game requires infrastructure to do well.

Anyway I will put up a few saves or screens along the way to see if we can find a better way of going about it.

I think I will save every turn for the first 100, in case you would want to see one.

	09-08-2004 10:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Krak I got a town from the goody hut, not a settler

Ok, that about the same thing. I have not made up my mind if I want to move the settler or not. Maybe I will build there to stay with yours.

	09-08-2004 10:00									#14
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That would be good, thanks

Then I can restart and get some revenge.

	09-08-2004 10:11									#15
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I decided to move it to the coast near the capitol. IIRC you said this was an island map, so having a place to get a boat out soon would be good.

The second city needs to be close anyway.

	09-08-2004 10:13									#16
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Here:

Attachment: settler.jpg
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	09-08-2004 10:31									#17
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well you could just build your third city where the goody hut is and I could build mine where you put the second one, just to keep things consistant.

	09-08-2004 11:49									#18
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I figured I would do what I would normally do so you could know what that is and evaluate it.

I am not going to try to play this to the wall or anything like that, just make standard builder plays and see how that looks.

At 1625BC (stopping for the night). I have decided to go ahead and start two wonders as the AI is way behind on tech, even though I traded them many techs.

I have contact with 6 civs via ground and two boats out now.

Attachment: settler.jpg
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	09-08-2004 11:51									#19
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Working on writing:

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	09-08-2004 11:57									#20
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With Phily and NY I have cut off access behind them and made the ivory my next target. I could crank out more settlers here and bury the game, but I figured it would be fun to have wonders for a change.

I will wait for Boston to do the pumping, its granary is going up, even though I took away the NG tile and gave it to DC.

	09-08-2004 20:34									#21
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I deliberately made wonders that slowed down my expansion and would lead to a despotic GA (with few cities). This is not a way I would suggest in most games, but this on is a free roll.

So I am now getting under way in the 7xxBC time frame.

At 110BC I have 8 cities and a settler at a site. I have built
Pyramids
Colossus
Great LIghthouse
Oracle
SoZ
Mausoleum

with the Great Wall well underway. The AI has none. I see they have started Temple of Artemis, but I will no build it anyway.

They also have started the GL, I am not sure if I will try to beat them or not. When I get the Wall done, I will drop embassies on those civs and see where they stand.

A few cities of mine have libs now and markets are starting.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 10-08-2004 at 01:15

	10-08-2004 00:21									#22
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In my game I am doing really well right now. I have beat the sumerians into a lifeless pulp, leaving them only 3 cities so that I might help them rebuild and have them be my pet guard dog later on.

I have only built the SoZ and pyramids so far, IMO the other wonders are worthless to me right now and I am planning on grabbing the knights templar as well. its 640AD and I almost have chivalry researched.

I only have one major problem though, I'm in a -42 gold defecit . 18 of this is from my army. I have already slowed down research to build up gold but the AI is catching up in tech and I only have 400 gold.

I was thinking of switching from republic to monarchy, for the increased army support because the celts are becoming a force to recon with. They are almost equal with me on population and world % controlled but they also have a larger military. what do you think?

On a side note, the celts built the temple of artemis but none of my cities have temples? is there a bug with the temple or is there something that I don't know about it? they built it in their capital which is still on the same continent.

	10-08-2004 01:29									#23
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I think the thing that gets most players in trouble is the way they develop the empire. You should not run a defict, unless you have a stash to dip into to stay solvent.

IOW I run a decfict for a few turns now and then, but have cash on hand, except in the first 50 turns. In this game I even had money then as the huts were giving me 25 or 50 gold from time to time.

18 extra for units does not seem bad, I was running about -30. I never had a war, as even the AI could see that would be a failure for them.

I was selling the Byz techs, when they had the GL and would have gotten them free the next turn, so mean.

Anyway I would stay out of Monarchy. Two reasons, 1- loss of turns during switch, 2- you do not want to have to maintain a large MP force.

One of the issue you can run into in this type of a layout is needing units in the front line. This is easy for a representive form of government, they do not need MP's. It is not so easy for Monarchies.

	10-08-2004 01:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Krak On a side note, the celts built the temple of artemis but none of my cities have temples? is there a bug with the temple or is there something that I don't know about it? they built it in their capital which is still on the same continent.

I am not sure I followed this one. Are you saying you capture the ToA and do not get temples in your cities? If so, do you have Education?

One reason I do not build this is it expires too fast. You really should have temples in most cities by 600AD, even at Warlord.

Here is a 640ad :

	10-08-2004 01:42									#25
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quote: I am not sure I followed this one. Are you saying you capture the ToA and do not get temples in your cities? If so, do you have Education?

So you have to control it to get the temples? I thought that it was every city on the continent, not just yours. I don't have education yet...

	10-08-2004 01:55									#26
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No, like every other wonder, it only applies to the cities of the civ that builds it. You may have been confused by seeing posts here where players refer to making sure a continental neighbor builds such a wonder (Pyramids, ToA, Sun Tzu, etc.). The reason for that is they have an eye on conquering it, and want to get the benefits.

	10-08-2004 02:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi No, like every other wonder, it only applies to the cities of the civ that builds it. You may have been confused by seeing posts here where players refer to making sure a continental neighbor builds such a wonder (Pyramids, ToA, Sun Tzu, etc.). The reason for that is they have an eye on conquering it, and want to get the benefits.

In the civilopedia it says that it places a temple in EVERY city on the same continent, thats what threw me off.

	10-08-2004 02:14									#28
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I guess they figured you'd never be worried about whether or not it worked for enemy cities, too.

Though, come to think of it, that would be the only thing that could entice me to build ToA, since I know I could recover from the temple disappearance much better than the AI.

	10-08-2004 03:18									#29
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Yup, you have to control it and it not be obsolete.

What does your 640AD look like, did you start over?

Post a save from some point after 10AD to 640AD, anywhere in there. I want to see how you progressed.

I looked at the 10AD saves and they were not all that far apart.

I think both had 9 cities.

GNP 91/86 Mfg 56/44 Income 4/3 Prod 146/138

Sci 55/48 Ent 11/15 Corrupt 13/14 Maint 11/11 Net +3/-4

Reserve 152/90

Not a big difference, until you see the roads in place and the wonders built yielding free AC.

This is where the foundation is laid down.
Later the Templars giving free units as well. This frees up a lot of production. Unfortunetly no one want a war until they were more or less obsolete.

	10-08-2004 03:40									#30
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I haven't started over but here is a save from 50AD.

Attachment: lincoln of the americans, 50 ad.sav
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