11-08-2004 02:28									#1
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if you have C3C is there any reason to buy PTW? what features (if any) am i missing by not having PTW?

thanks

	11-08-2004 02:39									#2
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The only difference is that you can't launch a PTW game with Conquests, you need the disc for that. Otherwise, everything in PTW is included in Conquests.

Oh yeah, there's some user created scenarios that come with PTW you miss out on as well, but you can probably DL them from here or over at Civfanatics.com.

	11-08-2004 02:47									#3
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The problem with conquests is a bunch of unfixed bugs, some changes a lot of people don't like (especially wrt corruption), etc. I personally would only get one or the other (though I have both), depending on which you think you'll like better. The problem is that you can't have PtW gameplay with C3C.

	11-08-2004 10:32									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The problem with conquests is a bunch of unfixed bugs, some changes a lot of people don't like (especially wrt corruption), etc. I personally would only get one or the other (though I have both), depending on which you think you'll like better. The problem is that you can't have PtW gameplay with C3C.

I basically have quit playing Civ3 in all its forms, until the bugs are ironed out or maybe Civ4 comes out and is hopefully mostly bug free. Why a franchise with such a great legacy, would let so many annoying bugs remain in its game is beyond me. I can only guess that the publisher Infogrames (I refuse to call them Atari, they don't deserve it). may be the reason for pushing various games out the door before bugs are ironed out. One nice thing about these forums, is that I can come here every once in a while to see if the current version of the game has been fixed or not. At the moment, sadly, it is not.

	11-08-2004 11:56									#5
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PtW and vanilla are AFAIK bug-free.

	11-08-2004 12:11									#6
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PtW has few bugs left (the city rank corruption bug aka RCP being one of them), which were announced to be fixed in Conquests (the classical Firaxis Deception: "buy our next game, it will be guaranteed bug free"). Astoundingly, this promise was kept, the PtW bugs are gone, except that tenfold more bugs were introduced, which never will be fixed.

	11-08-2004 12:19									#7
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I thought RCP was just a way of "exploiting" the corruption system, not a bug.

	11-08-2004 12:39									#8
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The fact alone, that such an exploit is possible, is a bug. It was fixed in Conquests. But look at every PtW PBEMs out there (there are quite a few left and even newly started). Everyone is RCPing, because not doing so would put you at a disadvantage. Not fun, definitely.

By the way, I called it "City rank corruption bug". RCP being only a synonym ("aka").

	11-08-2004 19:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Willem The only difference is that you can't launch a PTW game with Conquests, you need the disc for that. Otherwise, everything in PTW is included in Conquests. Oh yeah, there's some user created scenarios that come with PTW you miss out on as well, but you can probably DL them from here or over at Civfanatics.com.

You can play PTW with C3C, you just don't have the editor for PTW and can't make new scenarios. I have a PTW PBEM going and never mount my PTW disk.

I have also loaded a few games DL from here.

	16-08-2004 00:57									#10
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The newest patch, 1.22 conquests, fixes all bugs associated with corruption, forbidden palaces, secret police HQ...

Also, quite a few other bugs were fixed, although I don't remember all of them...

The technology radio was removed, thank god, and radar towers or whatever are now available I think with advanced flight.

And police stations now reduce corruption as well, not just war weariness.

The only drawback is that some buildings, particularly the new ones, and the great wonders, again, particularly the new ones, don't always show up on the city view screen. Ultimately though, this doesn't really matter, considering that this doesn't affect gameplay...

	16-08-2004 05:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The fact alone, that such an exploit is possible, is a bug.

No, it isn't a bug. It's the intentional functioning of the program, and the player is using the corruption model to minimize corruption. It's no more a "bug" than using the FP far away from your Palace is a bug.

What it is is poor design/over powerful, but it wasn't a bugfix.

	16-08-2004 07:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The fact alone, that such an exploit is possible, is a bug. No, it isn't a bug. It's the intentional functioning of the program...

No, it isn't. That would be why they said 'oops' and tried to fix it.

	16-08-2004 07:20									#13
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Well, we know they won't fix em all. We also know they won't fix anymore with C3C.

I like PTW better than C3C. That itself is sad.

	16-08-2004 07:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, it isn't. That would be why they said 'oops' and tried to fix it.

Corruption functioned the way it was designed to (it wasn't some typo, or a memory leak, or a unit dissappearing randomly) - they just didn't realize the gameplay consequences of that design.

	16-08-2004 08:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Corruption functioned the way it was designed to (it wasn't some typo, or a memory leak, or a unit dissappearing randomly) - they just didn't realize the gameplay consequences of that design.

No, it didn't. They never intended RCP to be the answer to corruption in cIIIv. They never intended equidistant cities to share ranks. That's why they changed it when they found out about it.

	16-08-2004 08:18									#16
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RCP isn't a corruption scheme. RCP is a strategy to DEAL with the corruption scheme in PtW. They never intended RCP, because they never realized it was possible.

	16-08-2004 08:59									#17
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Thank you for playing. RCP was unintended then, which is 180 degrees from your reply to SR.

	16-08-2004 09:03									#18
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RCP is a strategy.

The corruption model behaved like intended.

It had unintended consequences for gameplay, because it could be exploited.

It is not a bug; it is simpy poor design.

	16-08-2004 09:15									#19
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RCP is a bug. That is why they fixed it.

The corruption model did not behave as intended when RCP was introduced.

RCP had no intended consequences for gameplay whatsoever, because it was not intended ever at all.

Poor design or bug? Tomato or tomatoe.

	16-08-2004 09:51									#20
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RCP wasn't created by the designers!

The corruption model was.

RCP is a strategy for making best use of the corruption model.

That such a strategy even existed was unknown to the designers. It was an unintended consequence of intended rules. A lack of foresight.

It is not a bug, any more than any other incredibly powerful strategy is a bug. It is poor balance.

The Jaguar Warrior used to be incredibly powerful - in fact, too powerful. Rushes with it were unstoppable. So they upped the cost. This was not a bug fix, it was a balance issue. It's the same thing.

	16-08-2004 09:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker RCP wasn't created by the designers!

	16-08-2004 10:24									#22
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I know; it's always so funny when I pwn people, because it's so blatant

	16-08-2004 10:45									#23
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If you insist that the effect produced by the program wasn't in fact put there by the creators, you own something... I'm not sure what it is, but it sure is something.

	16-08-2004 10:48									#24
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RCP isn't an effect. It's a strategy. It's created by players. Just like how Sid didn't create REXing or OCC.

	16-08-2004 10:52									#26
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*see above*

	16-08-2004 10:54									#27
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Please do.

	16-08-2004 11:11									#28
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Now you're just spamming.

	16-08-2004 11:28									#29
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You want to keep going? OK. Here, you don't seem to be able to buy a clue, so let me give you one.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker RCP isn't an effect. It's a strategy. It's created by players. Just like how Sid didn't create REXing or OCC.

Would that be why REX and OCC are not addressed or diminished by the designers as bugs? Is that why OCC goes beyond cIIIv and back to II?

What have they done about build as many settlers as possible as early as possible? Hmmm? Nothing? You're right!

What have they done about RCP? Is it they squashed it when they had the chance? You mean like they squash bugs?

Please, feel free to continue. This could turn out to be quite the funny thread.

	16-08-2004 11:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Would that be why REX and OCC are not addressed or diminished by the designers as bugs? Is that why OCC goes beyond cIIIv and back to II?

They're not addressed as balance issues. A bug is an error in the code that produces a directly unintended result, not an interaction of the rules that produces unforseen consequences. A memory leak is a bug. Allied ships declaring war when they run into subs is a bug. The rules that allow for RCP are not bugs, just like having a Jaguar Warrior at 10 shields is not a bug - it's unbalancing, and poor design, but not a bug.