11-08-2004 09:15									#1
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Feel free to suggest base sites here. I've attached an image with some of the more obvious choices. The x's indicate base sites that we've decided on and will form in 2127 and 2128.

This might also be a good place to talk about how many bases to build, when to go Dem to increase the b-limit, etc. Having 18 bases is the third b-limit while in frontier/FM/Wealth and the second b-limit while in Dem/FM/Wealth.

Attachment: 2126_base_options.jpg
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	11-08-2004 15:53									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Right. Time for some CTO ranting!

1: it's only moist, it's hemmed in by fungus and the x base nearby will probably be working the monolith

2: it's got forests, so it's cheap on the formertime, but is it on a rainy square? if it isn't, i'd move it to the flat/rainy next to it, in the radius of MorInd. there are other better options, but we could come back to it post-WP or EcoEng.

3: Slightly remote, but on a river, next to a pod and next to a minspecial (forested = 1/4/3, not bad huh? (Environmental Economics not included)).

4: Mediocre. Easier on the forming than 3, but I would like to see the minspecial drilled at some point. It also hogs the river and doesn't secure the pod

5: River, rolling/rainys abound. Enough said

6: It's highish, next to a pod (just watch out for the fungus = mindowms = bad), the shape of the land suggests to me some wetter ground in the unexplored side of its radius and a river.

7: The nut special next to 7 is screaming out for a forest: 3/2/2! If MorVulc works the rolling/rainy/river and forestworks the E special, then it has a monolith and a forested nut special = 5/4/4 at size 2.

8: arid. fungus. rocky. I'd rather put a base at 7 to use the monolith, and 7 is easier to get to.

--CTO #endgame

	11-08-2004 16:20									#3
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3 and 5 should be our next bases, for 6 7 8 we need to Xplore a bit more i think.
If we place 8 then 7 should go 1 SW
1 and 2 are no priority although i will feel safer with another base near the Hive Lands

	11-08-2004 19:45									#4
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This may affect your evualations, #endgame: raininess doesn't affect the nutrients collected at the base square. In fact, site 2 would need to be off the rainy square, so it can work it and two forests when PTS comes along, and still have 6 nuts for the 3 pop.

I think 2 is great because of the forests... plenty of stuff for crawlers to work. The river sites 3,5, and 6 are also great. The monolith to the east should be used somehow... not sure if 7 or 8 is better.

A total of twelve bases is the second b-limit without Dem. That means we'd need two psych at each base after PTS. If we go past that (good bet) to 13-18 bases, we'd need four psych per base. Or we could do 2 psych per base with Dem. Going Dem decreases our mineral output by one per base, so the question is, what's more important, two energy, or one min? My personal guideline is 2.25 energy = 1 min in the early game. That's a rough average purchase price for rush-building.

Here's the series of actions I'd suggest:

1) Road to 2, then continue roading to 3.
2) Road to 6, then continue roading to 5.
3) Road to 7 or 8.

	11-08-2004 20:56									#5
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Road to 7, then.

More general reflections:
PTS has the "advantage" that you are expanding slower because of the base site preparation that has to take place first. Slower is good against sprawling b-drones in this case.

If we go for (Mob, Flex, SocPsych, EthCalc) we will get Dem while most probably being at 8-9 bases (most "old" bases build a pod before PTS comes into effect to be down to size 1 again). These bases would be completely without b-drones.
Rapid expansion with subsequent investment into psych (e. g. found 3-4 bases on instant and dump money into psych after that) could follow. Dem has the advantage that less energy is wasted on slider allocation or far away bases.
(In the minigame I had a colony pod once waiting for five turns to allow two more to be finished and to found three bases at the same time.)

If we go for (Mob, Flex, ProgPsych, AdapEcon + PEG=Crawlers) we might stay for a longer time at comparatively few number of bases because of all that crawler building and "finance" our psych investment via PEG-Energy Banks.
Good news is here that with a base square of 6 energy (7 with rectanks) and a population of 3 there usually is enough energy to have sufficient psych even without doctors.
SocPsych/EthCalc would then something to be acquired via trade (Lal certainly has them (agenda) and Zak, too), what sounds feasible, too. We will look strong but not too strong during that time. (Look at the power chart in the minigame, I have been consistenly expanding from 7 bases in 2144 to 18 bases in 2162, noone really likes me)

Unfortunately we are not allowed to check b-drones in advance (parallel turns) by founding bases so every base must be able to support a doctor if needed or supply enough psych (see above).

Induced Golden Ages by psych investments are pretty meaningless by the way, that +1 Econ/base is not noticeable at all and 20% growth/base at that stage even hurts without RecCommons. Only bases working energy bonuses are GA candidates at that stage though.

	13-08-2004 05:55									#6
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I agree with EndGame#'s assesment on most of the numbered base locations but also have a few of my own.

Top priotiry for me would be to put a Base under the scout that now guards Yangs synthmetal scout. The spot is coastal and can send navel units east or west for contact with other factions. Its an important spot for extending our territory south so as to keep Hive bases from being built on our door step. At a later date we can put a base at 29/23 which would secure the entrance to our territory further. Note that I belive their is a peninsula of considerable size just east of that location extending to around (39/23).

In the far east slopes of Mt. Drouge I see 3 potential sites, (35/17), (37/15) and (39/13). The later two could work the Monolith. Theses bases could wait a bit though untill more desirable locations are filled.

I think that we can also fit a base at 25/19 in the flat/barren spot north of the scout. This will fill in the area well and use the least desirable terrain for the base site (ware nothing effects the output). The surrounding area will need a lot of terraforming so it might be best to leave this site for later.

Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 13-08-2004 at 06:08

	14-08-2004 10:18									#7
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It's #endgame, not endgame#.

Even regarding my miscalculations regarding base site 2, i still give it a since it won't be that great compared to the others. Sooner or later, we WILL need to put something there otherwise we could get an enemy foothold.

-- CTO #endgame

	17-08-2004 21:40									#8
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Spot six now has fungus, for as yet unknown reasons. We'll have to pick another spot. The area south of Mor Ind has some space. There are four reasonable spots next to each other, that I've labelled 9-12. Any of those four would need a farm for a 2-nut square before PTS. Any other ideas?

Attachment: 2128_base_options.jpg
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	17-08-2004 22:25									#9
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How about that: We would colonize fertile land, get to work that mineral bonus and have another safe pod pop.

Attachment: baseplacement_suggestions.jpg
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	18-08-2004 05:48									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Bring at least one other former into that plan to get decent completion time. But I like it, AndiD.

-- CTO #endgame

	18-08-2004 09:41									#11
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There's a former next to Mor Ind (under the crawler). That former can start from the other end.

Any reason you prefer your southern red 'x' to site 2, AndiD?

	18-08-2004 11:57									#12
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Site 2 is actually better than the southern red x (Sikander spacing to MorInd, 2 tiles away from site 3, ZZT and most probably the yet to found base between ZZT and RFR). I hadn't memorized all sites & numbers and reinvented a few of them instead...

	20-08-2004 21:39									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Looks good to me, we get that rich area developed and a western Sea Port to send transports out of. Recomend we name that SeaPort Whoha Warf as was sugjested some time ago. And aslong as we are at it Arganine needs a Base, perhaps Arganine Armanents? Arganine Agro? Arganine AiroSpace?

I still want us to keep pushing southward, especialy now that Yang moved his scout away. We dont want to run out of land halfway through the game. Speed is of the essense, Yang might found a base practicaly on our Door steps at any moment. As soon as the HGP is in the Bag we should start make southward expantion a top priority.

As for the 9/10/11/12 cluster I like 10 as the base site because its the most useless piece of land in the whole area, put a farm just south in the moist rolling for 2/1/0 and develope the River for energy.

	20-08-2004 21:54									#14
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Whoha doesn't like that name Whoha Wharf, so let's not use that. Vander Eudaimonics was one I was going to use. But there's another thread for that.

	21-08-2004 03:52									#15
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Why do we want to build a base on lots of rainy terrain? All each base needs is a single 2 nut producing square. Sure, a rainly square means we don't have to farm it, but that seems to be the only advantage to me over a moist square. There are lots of moist squares. I'd hate wasting rainy squares on forest.

I was under the idea we were going to go for lots of forest and tree farms (a marvelous facility). Forest works on even shitty terrain. I was hoping we could use the rainy squares for crawling nutrients to bases we want to pop boom. A doctor with a holotheatre and tree farm will make 4 psych. ~ 1/2 of people in base will thus make enough psych to make the other 1/2 happy. Also, the way our bases are now, they are too crowded. I am assuming once we get the PTS, some of the bases will be turned entirely into CPs, and most bases will get their needed space.

If the only thing a base needs is a moist square and a bunch of forest, then we need not be picky about where the new bases go.

Last edited by arginine on 23-08-2004 at 09:01

	21-08-2004 05:30									#16
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Our bases just need forest and a moist square. Unless there's a special near a base site, lets just stick bases down south to grab territory from Yang. Yes, we haven't explored enough to find a base site. If we find a base site, then lets build a base there.

Last edited by arginine on 23-08-2004 at 09:22

	13-09-2004 06:39									#17
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We have five CP's coming out in the next three years or so. Here's an updated map. I used letters this time for the heck of it.

A base at "H" could use a sensor under it first, considering its chokepoint location. It will also need a farm for a two-nutrient square.

Sites at "E" and "F2" would need farms for two-nutrient squares.

Site "C" would need to have fungus cleared out.

Sites "A", "B", "D", and "G" have the best resources.

Attachment: 2135_base_ideas.jpg
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	13-09-2004 07:39									#18
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I think D is not that great, but the nut special near it is begging for a forest.

F2>F1. F2 would be good so we can sight more area.

G I think is a bit... average but we should drop something SE of G to watch for landings.

I'd road through E and drop a base there then expand to F2.

I'd also say B1 to minimise overlap with A.

But on the whole, good base sites.

I'd also stay away from C. Beware the fungus!

-- CTO #endgame

	14-09-2004 07:20									#19
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A, B have good resources. A city that can use the eastern monolith (D). F2 because it has less overlap and it's not on the sea (thus can't be hit by a probe foil), and a base near H. Maybe in the future we can terraform some land near H up, so the base would be the only way between the two bodies of water.

	14-09-2004 08:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by arginine Maybe in the future we can terraform some land near H up, so the base would be the only way between the two bodies of water.

I like that idea a lot. Env Econ is the required tech.