08-06-1999 05:36									#1
	Numbers Available to players vs Hidden Numbers, a Poll Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Should the player be able to get at the numbers in the game, or have them hidden from view? Or optionally available? Vote here...but don't vote often .

N = Numbers everywhere
O = Optional numbers, at player demand
A = Absolutely No stinking numbers available

If you don't care between two you can vote FE O,N or O,A

Thanks,
Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited June 07, 1999).]

	08-06-1999 06:16									#2
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A

Normally, being a big fan of felexibility, I'd say "O", but in games like these it's a fact that if there is such an option, you will use it to get the maximum effect - which in the end can kill the fun. Not having the option at all reduces the risk considerably.

And I propose that even the .txt files are compiled in a way to encrypt the values so there's still something to be explored with every new scenario. Leaving them readable is kinda like giving out cheat codes with the game: Everyone knows they spoil the fun, but few can resist...


[This message has been edited by Dominique (edited June 07, 1999).]

	08-06-1999 06:38									#3
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O

	08-06-1999 07:03									#4
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O, leaning towards A. I think we should try to have as few numbers as possible in the game, but we should have .txt files showing All numbers/formulas for those who want to study them.

	08-06-1999 08:43									#5
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Agree with hfrankel, it's hard to resist tweaking the values.

	08-06-1999 12:52									#6
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I'm not particularly A, O or N.
All I know is the way we're heading, the computings will be so complex that the numbers wont be usefull to anybody (I mean : in Civ you can know in how many turns u will have new through looking at the food output in a given city; apparently, the computings for growth in Clash will take into account many more parameters, which are highly interdependant; I'm not sure the player will spend half an hour for each province each turn to calculate this by hand, even if we give him the numbers and the formulas. The same is true for every model, especially because all models will be more or less interlinked).
Moreover, I agree with H and Dom : I personaly prefer to FEEL how to play than to CALCULATE how to play. But the last point is only my very personal opinion, IMO the first point I pointed out is a lot more relevant.

	08-06-1999 19:33									#7
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O

	09-06-1999 09:56									#8
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O,A

I don't like to have numbers representing the value of tiles etc., but I would like to have demographics. The reason is that the player should not be able to realize the effects of his actions at once by calculating terrain values or trade points. In my opinion it would be far more interesting if it took some time until the results of one's decisions become obvious.
So useful demographics would be a nice help to find out what's going on in a civilization. They could even be shown as diagrams.

[This message has been edited by Harun ar Rashid (edited June 09, 1999).]

	08-06-1999 22:02									#9
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O and A, depending on the stat.

O
For things a leader would know, like # of soldiers, pop, etc, the players must have the option to know the real numbers.

	08-06-1999 23:08									#10
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A
For normal gameplay. (In the car industry almost every car has an ANALOG speedometer. I got a car with a DIGITAL one and I HATE IT.)
O
For scenarios, game modify, cheating, etc. (To get exact information.)

Blade Runner

[This message has been edited by Blade Runner (edited June 08, 1999).]

	08-06-1999 23:50									#11
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O or N

I agree that numbers can mean that you do alot of micromanaging but instead do all the calculations for people. Also even if the numbers are hidden people will either hack, or just use trial and improvement to work out the numbers, Fe. in SMAC the supposed numbers it gives you in combat are wrong so someone went through and ran a large number of tests.
So I say O or people will get frustrated as they must find them themselves

	09-06-1999 02:26									#12
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O.

	09-06-1999 10:33									#13
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A bis
The player should have access to Numbers only when the civ has the tech and bureaucracy to provide Numbers. Populations and economic figures for cities, sectors, provinces etc vague and possibly inaccurate.

	10-06-1999 09:10									#14
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I'm an O,N kinda guy myself.

	09-06-1999 23:17									#15
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O.

	10-06-1999 07:20									#16
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Looks to me like Optional Numbers is the clear winner. In a clear second place is A.

I agree that in some areas the numbers would be useless to the players anyway. And numbers the players shouldn't know because of lack of information clearly shouldn't be given to them.

Thanks for voting, and those who voted for N, your checks are in the mail

	10-06-1999 12:43									#17
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I agree completely with F_Smith

	16-06-1999 15:09									#18
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O