12-08-2004 00:34									#1
	What does a CIV Trait do for you? Support Apolyton

Does this look like an all inclusive list? What am I missing here?

And is this already posted somewhere? I tried a search but no luck:

Comments?

Seafaring: +1 movement ships, coast cities produce +1 gold
Reduced chance of sinking.
Water based improvements are cheaper.
- Harbors
- Offshore platforms
- Coastal Fortress
- Commercial Dock

Scientific: Libraries, Universities, and Labs are cheaper.
One free advance at start of each era.
C3C only: chances of getting a SGL is higher.

Religious: Temples and Cathedrals are cheaper.
No anarchy between governments.( 1 Turn (Civ3/PTW) 2 Turns (C3C) )

Militarstic: Units promoted more often.
Military improvements are cheaper.
- Barracks
- Walls
- Harbors
- Airports
- Civil Defense
- SAM Missile Batteries
- Coastal fortresses

Industrious: Metros +1 shield in center square. Workers complete jobs faster.

Expansionist: Can build Scouts, start with one Scout.
Goody Huts are more lucrative and cannot pop-up Barbarians.

Commercial - Lower Corruption. Metros +1 Commerce center square.

Agricultural: +1 food on base city square. Extra food on irrigated desert.
Aqueduct, Recycling Plant, Solar Plant are cheaper.

	12-08-2004 00:54									#2
	Tired of ads?

Aside from some quantification and a few details, good list.

Specifically:

-Cheaper buildings are half-price (I believe that's true for every cheaper building)
-Industrious workers are twice as fast as non-Industrious in vanilla and PTW, and 1.5 times as fast in C3C.
-Agricultural civs only get the city square bonus food in cities adjacent to rivers (rivers or any fresh water?) while under despotism. Once out of despotism, all city squares get the bonus.
-Scientific chances to generate an SGL are 5% compared to 3% for non-Scientific (not sure if my numbers are right on that one).

	12-08-2004 01:02									#3
	Support Apolyton

Good comments..

Lets verify and then I will continually update the list

I decided to start this because I can never remeber exactly what the CIV traits get you. Thats what happens when you get old. Your memory is the second thing to go

	12-08-2004 01:08									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yep, and when I remember the first, I'll let you know.

Good thought, and a needed list.

	12-08-2004 03:54									#5
	Remove this text

What?

Industrious gives you a 50% faster worker rate, thus the irrigation costing 3 turns instead of 2 on C3Q. But, still allowing you 2 turn roads.

Also, Industrious trait should give you cheaper factories, coal plants, and Nuclear Power plans later on.
Secondly, the Agricultural trait should include granaries with their cheaper buildings, that would really make me want to pick the Maya or some other nation with that trait!
Finally, the Commerical trait should give you cheaper Marketplaces, Banks, and Stock Markets.

-Ron

	12-08-2004 03:58									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by barbeerhj What? Industrious gives you a 50% faster worker rate, thus the irrigation costing 3 turns instead of 2 on C3Q. But, still allowing you 2 turn roads.

Yes.

quote: Also, Industrious trait should give you cheaper factories, coal plants, and Nuclear Power plans later on. Secondly, the Agricultural trait should include granaries with their cheaper buildings, that would really make me want to pick the Maya or some other nation with that trait! Finally, the Commerical trait should give you cheaper Marketplaces, Banks, and Stock Markets. -Ron

All of these additions would make the traits in question far too powerful. Ag and Ind are generally regarded as top traits already, and half price marketplaces would really be to good to add to any trait, given that markets are arguably the best imp. in the game.

	12-08-2004 08:32									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, 50% faster in C3C is what I said.

As far as what they should give, punkbass nailed it. All the cheaper buildings you mentioned would be overpowered (ESPECIALLY half price granaries, and to a slightly lesser extent half price factories). I could see the half price commercial improvements, but we already have a wonder that makes them maintenance free, and Commercial is already pretty powerful.

If you're letting the lack of half price granaries keep you from playing an Ag civ, you are, to say the least, missing out. One free food already makes it the most powerful trait in all but the worst (relatively speaking) circumstances.

	12-08-2004 09:00									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I thought Agricultural did have 1/2 price granaries...

	12-08-2004 17:08									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No, that would be insane. They already get the 1/2 cost aqueducts, the bonus food in the city tile, and the irrigated deserts = 2f, 1s. That's awfully good.

-Arrian

	12-08-2004 20:14									#10
	Re: What does a CIV Trait do for you? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Does this look like an all inclusive list? What am I missing here? And is this already posted somewhere? I tried a search but no luck: Comments? Seafaring: +1 movement ships, coast cities produce +1 gold Reduced chance of sinking. Water based improvements are cheaper. - Harbors - Offshore platforms - Coastal Fortress - Commercial Dock

Half price.
+2 gold in coastal cities, +3 gold in costal metros.

quote: Scientific: Libraries, Universities, and Labs are cheaper. One free advance at start of each era. C3C only: chances of getting a SGL is higher.

Half price.

quote: Religious: Temples and Cathedrals are cheaper. No anarchy between governments.( 1 Turn (Civ3/PTW) 2 Turns (C3C) )

Half price
Compares to for humans 4 - 8 turns Civ3/PTW / 5 - 9 turns C3C (weighted by number of cities in the empire for C3C only)
At high difficulty levels, by default the AI has shorter max anarchy levels. (3 turns for Emperor)

quote: Militarstic: Units promoted more often. Military improvements are cheaper. - Barracks - Walls - Harbors - Airports - Civil Defense - SAM Missile Batteries - Coastal fortresses

1/2 price

quote: Industrious: Metros +1 shield in center square. Workers complete jobs faster.

+1 shield in cities, +2 in Metros.
100% faster workers Civ III Classic / PTW, 50% faster workers C3C

quote: Expansionist: Can build Scouts, start with one Scout. Goody Huts are more lucrative and cannot pop-up Barbarians.

Incas can't build normal scouts but can build Chiquese Scout instead. Never the less, they start with a normal scout.

quote: Commercial - Lower Corruption. Metros +1 Commerce center square.

+2 Commere in cities, +3 Commerce in Metros.
Increased OCN.

quote: Agricultural: +1 food on base city square. Extra food on irrigated desert. Aqueduct, Recycling Plant, Solar Plant are cheaper.

Half priced.
If the city has a natural aquaduct, you can still keep the extra food in despotism / anarchy. Otherwise it would be lost.

Note that a Military Seafaring civ does NOT get to build Harbors for 3/4ths off. They pay 1/2 off.

	12-08-2004 20:43									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Great stuff!

When I get a chance in the next couple of days, Ill edit the first post in red, and then let you guys take a look.

Then if we think its done we can add it to the links if you guys think thats appropriate,

	12-08-2004 21:00									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

WRT some of the middle posts, the topic is what effects a civ trait GIVES, not what they should do, right?

	12-08-2004 21:18									#13
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Petrus2 WRT some of the middle posts, the topic is what effects a civ trait GIVES, not what they should do, right?

Correct, Im just trying to collect what effect a CIV Trait has on game mechanics.

I think what you should DO vice what you GET, should go in another thread or maybe even a series of threads

	12-08-2004 21:18									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Right, Petrus.

	13-08-2004 22:05									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Since I doubt they're going to modify the traits in C3, it should probably even go in a different forum, the cIV forum.

	15-08-2004 10:38									#16
	Re: What does a CIV Trait do for you? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Does this look like an all inclusive list? What am I missing here? Seafaring: +1 movement ships, coast cities produce +1 gold Reduced chance of sinking. Water based improvements are cheaper. - Harbors - Offshore platforms - Coastal Fortress - Commercial Dock

Increased chance of coastal start.
I've no idea what the actual numbers are, but from the 1.20(2) readme:

quote: Greatly improved the ability of Seafaring civs to start near the coast. It should happen most of the time now.

This feature doesn't work for pregenerated maps, but has been fixed to work in MP.

-The Coastal Crusader

	15-08-2004 10:46									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In fact, you're supposed to always get a coastal start. It's just the map generator isn't perfect.

	15-08-2004 10:56									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What do you mean? The readme says "most of the time" in plain English. Have they said they tried to make it all of the time, but couldn't get the game mechanics right?

	15-08-2004 11:05									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

They want it to be all of the time, but they can't guarantee it. At least, that's how I've always understood it.

	16-08-2004 06:54									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think that's unlikely, since the algoritm to determine coastal status already exists. If it were a matter of making it a 100% situation, it would be a simple fix.

	16-08-2004 09:03									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It may be, though, that they'd have to regenerate start locations an inordinate number of times to assure a coastal start.

	16-08-2004 09:29									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

They have to throw out water locations (60-80% of the map) as is. Even if coasts are only 3-5% of the map, the extra ~25% non-coastal tiles wouldn't affect generation times significantly. This should all be basic TBS programming.

	19-08-2004 07:20									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This should be topped, or somehow referenced in the (someday to appear) AU homepage.

	19-08-2004 07:50									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Or at least linked in the Must Read Threads (hint, hint)

	19-08-2004 09:14									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

* Theseus smacks himself with a semi-fresh-trout.

	19-08-2004 09:17									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

I am going to get to the first post as well.

Ill edit in the changes in another color and let everyone take a look see.

	19-08-2004 09:56									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D They have to throw out water locations (60-80% of the map) as is. Even if coasts are only 3-5% of the map, the extra ~25% non-coastal tiles wouldn't affect generation times significantly. This should all be basic TBS programming.

Maybe we should ask Firaxis

	20-08-2004 00:26									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker They want it to be all of the time, but they can't guarantee it. At least, that's how I've always understood it.

Exactly, they are using herisurstic (however it's spelled) alogrithms to design the topology in the first place. They've given seafaring civs higher priority than non-seafaring civs for all starting locations (another heris. alog.) that are coastal, but if there happen to be move seafaring civs than starting locations adjoining the coast, then by the pigon hole principle, at least one seafaring civ won't start adjoining the coast.

This is much more likely to occur on a pangena map, least water tiles, with lots of non-suitable starting tiles ( hills / mountains / desert) combined with a high ratio of seafaring civs to non-seafaring civs.

	20-08-2004 12:41									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Heuristic? I'm not familliar with the programming implications of this term. I haven't done a great deal of experimentation with this, but passive observation has shown that in purely generated maps, I have yet to see a seafaring civ not get a coastal start. Maps that have been generated in advance with the editor have less than half the seafaring civs recieve a coastal start. Clearly they have a routine in place that works through the regular game generation process, but not with the editor...

	20-08-2004 14:55									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Heuristic? I'm not familliar with the programming implications of this term.

It means you use simple rules instead of a complicated algorithm. It usually requires a lot of testing, but cen give good results with minimal processing power required. It can also produce very weird results in cases the programmers didn't think of.