12-08-2004 09:04									#1
	Tech Plans Post Philosophy Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

We should have made this thread sooner.

In any regard, after our chat with PAL and after some internal discussion, this is the proposed tech plan that we're going forward with:

WHAT WE HAVE NOW: CB, WC, Wheel, Pottery, Masonry, BW, Alpha, IW, Writing, Math, CoL, Philo, Rep

WHAT WE NEED TO ADVANCE:
Mysticism, Polytheism, Currency, Construction, Mapmaking

WHAT PAL HAS:
Mysticism, Mapmaking


We intend to have PAL gift us Mysticism, Polytheism, and Construction. We are gifting them everything else we have. We will finish Currency and gift it to them, sending us both into the MA together.

Right before we finish Currency, we'll have PAL gift us Mapmaking so that Currency will send us to the next age.

We intend to work Currency at MINIMUM SCIENCE. In C3C, you do techs at 50 turns instead of 40. (Note: IF we researched currency at 80% science -- which is the best we can do without losing money -- we would get the tech in 32 turns!) We intend to research at 10%, stockpiling our cash to upgrade warriors into swords (and curraghs into galleys).

This means that we will go to war with CDG aproximately half-way on our way to Currency. We will have our GA while doing minimum tech research. We will finish our GA before we finish Currency. (We may want to consider raising our science during our GA). We will also want to assign a citizen as a scientist while in anarchy on our way to Republic.

Our GA will be used to build infrastructure, and possibly rush-build necessary buildings like temples, markets, and libraries.

We also plan to ask CDG to research Literature. We will offer them Polytheism (which will be given to us by PAL shortly) in exchange for it. They may or may not get it before the war starts. If they don't we'll manage and one of us will get it later on.

If you think this plan is bad, or if you can make it better PLEASE post in this thread!

--Togas

	12-08-2004 09:14									#2
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CDG is missing: Masonry, Wheel, HBR, Mysticism, Math, Mapmaking, (Philosophy, Republic)

	12-08-2004 09:14									#3
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If we are doing 50-turns research, we may be better-off doing Construction rather than Currency, since Construction is a more expensive tech.

	12-08-2004 10:34									#4
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* MrWhereItsAt doesn't know why he's still here

So we will be bulking up cash during our GA rather than science...

GK, any plans for a city that could handle a scientist for most/all of this time? It could even be a largely corrupt city somewhere that can make up for its lack of production with the odd cash rushed building. That would be best, especially during our GA, where 10% science will mean more than just the two trade is spent on science (10% over a number of cities in a GA in Republic will mean quite an amount 'wasted' that could otherwise be stockpiled as gold).

A few other points: rush's idea makes sense, unless there is a specific reason that we cannot go for Construction or PAL cannot go for Currency. Also we need to think of an alternative (or possibly a sweetener) if we wanted CDG to research Literacy. It's kind of a dud tech in MP, and don't be surprised if they laugh at us for suggesting it.

	12-08-2004 16:19									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Also we need to think of an alternative (or possibly a sweetener) if we wanted CDG to research Literacy. It's kind of a dud tech in MP, and don't be surprised if they laugh at us for suggesting it.

Please research literacy. Pay no attention to the fact that we and PAL are steaming towards the Middle ages while you research a near-useless tech. And why are we strong to you? Pesky C3C barbs.

	12-08-2004 21:09									#6
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If we are researching a tech in 50 turns, I'd prefer Construction since it's more expensive.

	12-08-2004 21:11									#7
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CDG's tech rate sucks right now compared to PAL.

They are NOT in the drivers seat by any stretch of the imagination.

I understand it would be great to milk them for what they are worth, BUT if they dont want to play ball it wont be a terrible loss.

And if they dont want to play ball then guess what? We can blame them once hostilities start.

Dont get me wrong if they play ball that will be good.

If they dont, we wont lose a tremendous amount, and may get some benefit from it.

To Togas:

We need to get PAL Republic as well sometime during these transactions. And my thought is "Trading a bunch of techs to PAL for Republic" is a good cover story with CDG, and it is essentially the truth in our "Share all techs" agreement with PAL.

Thoughts?????

	12-08-2004 21:17									#8
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Selling Literature to CDG: The idea was to offer them Mysticism and Polytheism for it. PAL plans to offer them Mapmaking for it (as PAL already has Mapmaking). The hope was that they'll believe that they'll get a ton more tech out of it by making trades than by doing the research themself.

On Currency vs Construction: Changing to Construction may be a better move. The only benefit of Currency is that we may be able to switch to 20-30% sci during our GA and get Currency faster than 50 turns (maybe 30-40) and speed up our rise to the Middle Ages. I'm not entirely sure if this is possible, as I haven't simmed our GA out and will defer to another person with more knowledge of GA economicis.

We'd also like to keep PAL researching big techs so that they don't rack up too much gold while waiting for us to finish.

--Togas

	12-08-2004 21:36									#9
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Lit is not useless. Very not useless. We are scientific, so it is our method of very cheap culture. Culture and science will be our greatest benefits in our relationship with PAL. By the later middle ages, we will be the dominant partner. The fact that we have the only iron, and it is far away from PAL, it is our ace in the hole just in case.

Our GA will begin on or around turn 95 with a CDG attack on one of our Hoplites (we assume – I am sure we can attack a 1 hp warrior with one if we are waiting too long and get fustrated). Our armies will start marching around turn 90. The exact turn of the attack will be determined in the future, but those are approximates we can use to plan by. We need to have a cash reserve of about 100 gold PRIOR to switching to Republic. Once in Republic, our gold will go away fast as we will have far too large an army without any support. The idea is to go into anarchy 5 turns before we enter our GA, so that we don’t loose any turns of our GA in war (our military may have to do some juggling depending on how many turns anarchy takes, but I have faith in Uber.) Our GA will support our army until we get some more cities (from CDG of course). As our military expenses decrease, we will slide our science slider up so that hopefully we will be able to research one tech in the middle ages under the GA as well (we will also have one free one as we are scientific. Lets hope for feudalism to keep PAL on guard against our MI’s). I would recommend going for Chivalry so that we can get knights. PAL will be able to upgrade their horses to knights (and Cav), we will have a massive slow mover army, and we will have the navy to scout. It is just a question of us determining a target. We will probably be pushing the higher route in techs (towards Navigation) so we can do the invasion and catch whomever by surprise.

	12-08-2004 22:44									#10
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this is an elimination game. Unless we are going to be playing out the whole thing, culture isn't a factor. Unless we want to flip other cities.

	12-08-2004 22:53									#11
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But libraries and research are

What about my cover story for CDG?

Republic to PAL for a bunch of PAL techs?

We can tell CDG we really raped PAL

Also on the construction vs currency, I think its best to have PAL research that. I dont want them getting TOO far ahead in techs, and there research rate now is impressive. It may not make sense from a lets count beakers perspective, but it may make sense from a Geopolitical perspective.

With that being said, Ill do what the team wants. In either case we need someone to SIm this out very soon before PAL starts research on construction.

	12-08-2004 23:04									#12
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And we need to move to a decision on what we expect tech wise from PAL this upcoming turn.

It looks to me right now that we want PAL to gift us Mysticism.

Is that correct?

(And the barb worker of course)

	12-08-2004 23:11									#13
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Im not sure about the Republic cover stroy now since all PAL has right now is Mysticism and Ma Making, and we want to delay on Map Making for GK/Ubers "GRAND ARMADA",

Lets say we swapped PAL "something" for Mysticism and maybe some cash. Or maybe multiple somethings.
( We already sent them: Math, CoL, Philo this turn, accepted, so which ones does it make sense to tell CDG we swapped for Mysticism and some cash????)

Then once they get Poly, we can say we traded them Republic and Poly for a bunch of cash.

This is only our "Cover Story". I dont want to share this with CDG right off the bat. I just want to have a good story in place in case they start asking Nuke Master all kinds of questions. The last couple of times we have gotten into impromptu discussions with CDG, we have stepped on our cranks. Lets get the story straight first this time and then we can all stick to it.

Life will be a lot simple once we wipe them off the face of the map

	12-08-2004 23:21									#14
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Don't go into specifics with CDG. Just say we sold them Republic for A LOT.

And I think you are correct regarding PAL's gifts to us.

	13-08-2004 01:04									#15
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We can also say we traded tech for workers along with some gold. Heck we can lie through our teeth!

	13-08-2004 01:24									#16
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Well saying we traded techs for workers is not REALLY a lie.

We are essentially trading everything with PAL, its more like sharing but thats semantics.

I dont want to get to far off the mark on our "Story", because as you know in the past our impromptu stories were number 1, not very believeable , and number 2, we had to reclama them just about everytime

With that being said, I kind of like GK's idea, we tell CDG if asked that we got a lot for the initial tech trade, then we got a lot for the Republic deal.

I just hope CDG doesn't offer up Republic to PAL. PAL turning that down maybe hard to explain and I just thought of that.

Dam this war isn't going to start soon enough for us professional "stretchers of the truth"

	13-08-2004 01:26									#17
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But, the more we lie, the easier it is to find out. Just something to think about.

	13-08-2004 01:36									#18
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Right

So the story has to be plausible, and we have to stick to it.

Thats why I like we got a lot from PAL for techs. Its not really a lie

	13-08-2004 02:09									#19
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Half-truths are the way to go, generally.

	13-08-2004 21:20									#20
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Or a collection of statements that are indivudally true, and yet taken together are highly misleading.

	13-08-2004 21:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master But, the more we lie, the easier it is to find out. Just something to think about.

That's why we make it so crazt it just might work.

What if, if there is resistance or scepticism from CDG that we really want Lit (after using the idea that we want Libraries), we tell them that we have been monitoring the other two civs' development via Demographics and have worked out that, cooperatively, they could reach far beyond us soon, and if we got the GL, we could meet them sometime in the future and procure for free their masses of tech. This would be great if CDG believes there will be no conflict on our continent until after contact with the other continent.

Now here's a thought - what is CDG's thinking re: PAL? Do they think we will be allying with CDG to kill them sometime in the future, we will have an uneasy three-way situation for a time, or that we are all three going to cooperate to outpace the two on the other continent? We should, if possible, mislead CDG into believing we are cooperating with both of them yet secretly planning to backstab PAL.... the best lies are always based in truth. The end result will be the same - we are betraying CDG in any case.

	14-08-2004 00:59									#22
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Then we should continue to play CDG. Make them feel like were good partners. Our lies about the tech explanation could be part of a larger chat about discussing the future of the continent - used to draw up borders that will never be used and such. For more realism, we could even invite PAL to a 'future planning' chat with CDG to give our story a greater aura of authenticity.

	17-08-2004 20:58									#23
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We need to come to conclusion about when we want the techs to transfer between PAL and us. This needs to be done to the end of this age.

When is PAL getting Republic?

Delay Map Making from PAL until we are ready to launch into the next age?

Whats the final timetable and who is working this????

Thanks

	18-08-2004 05:41									#24
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I am generally working on this.

We send republic to PAL this turn.

We request MM in about 40-45 turns (depending on how the research in currency progresses) so we get it just prior to going into our next age. We might not get the chance to build any currachs, but I prefer to keep the chance open.