13-08-2004 18:15									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Verto These guy has had two wives.

It is reported that his inlaws of his first wife knew that McGreevy was gay. The question then is did his second wife know prior to their marriage and if so why did she allow the sham to proceed? Obviously the assumption is that McGreevy was disingenuous or at best unsure of his own sexuality. Regardless his decision to perpetrate a second marriage and lie to someone he supposedly loved says volumes about his character and his trustworthiness.

	13-08-2004 18:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Note that, if he were to resign before September 2, New Jersey would be required by law to have a gubernatorial election this coming election day. The most popular likely candidate at this time is his previous challenger, Republican Bret Schundler. By waiting until well into November, he is able to designate his successor, until November 2005. There will be a battle.

Repubs see this as a means to have NJ back in play. Wee there a gubernatorial election the popularity of Schundler might have spill over ramification to help Bush carry NJ.

Expect a huge firefight over this.

	13-08-2004 18:43									#63
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quote: Wee there a gubernatorial election the popularity of Schundler might have spill over ramification to help Bush carry NJ.

Doubt it. Schundler, while I like the man, got creamed against McGreevey. An unabashed conservative will not survive a statewide race in moderate NJ.

	13-08-2004 20:24									#64
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What firefight can there be? McGreevey has every right to resign when he sees fit. There's little Republicans can do but ***** and moan. I'm sure they'll be loud, but since the Dems run NJ state politics, don't expect it to go very far. The argument can easily be made that McGreevey's decision is the one that will cause NJ the least amount of turmoil, as it will ensure relative continuity until the next scheduled gubernatorial election.

And Ogie, don't be so quick to judge a situation about which you know little. You might try speaking with gay people who have been married (there are scads of them) so you can see there are a lot of reasons they go that route, the primary one being a denial of one's own identity and suppression of it.

But it's the route advocated by the fundamentalist religionistas, who think gay folks can just flip a switch and endure a heterosexual marriage if they try really, really hard. No matter how many lives it messes up.

	13-08-2004 20:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But it's the route advocated by the fundamentalist religionistas, who think gay folks can just flip a switch and endure a heterosexual marriage if they try really, really hard. No matter how many lives it messes up.

That would assume that McGreevey would be courting that vote which I think unlikely. More likely he was attempting main stream moderate cover.

The point I was making is that it is unlikely McGreevey did not know of his confusion over his sexuality at the point of his second marriage and in point of fact it was a very likely cause for his first divorce (evidenced by the assumption that his inlaws were aware that he was gay). This being the case, to go into a second marriage for presumably political expedience and cover is disingenuous to, at a minimum, his second wife. Whether it makes a hoot of difference to the voters (and it shouldn't) is not the issue. What is more important tho' is that the man has a character flaw that belies his personal courage. (Only under threat of being outed by a lawsuit does he respond for spin control purpose). Put it this way, Barney Frank deserves much more commendation than McGreevey for having the moral courage to be openly gay (even despite Frank's own admittedly scandalled career)

Your point is valid tho' that I have no first hand knowledge of his personal situation, but that hasn't stopped anyone here at 'poly from posting anything now has it?

	13-08-2004 20:56									#66
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What is more perverted?

A gay man who decides to finally be honest with everyone, or a straight man/gay man who marries someone of the opposite gender merely for political reasons?

	13-08-2004 21:08									#67
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Not the right question as they both describe the same person and lack of ethics in their actions. Perverted doesn't apply here.
(Edit - I wouldn't use the word perverted here because the issue in my mind does not revolve around his chocie of sexuality which I think you were trying to imply I find as a perversion. And whether you choose to believe one way or the other I do not. )

His action to become finally honest would be noble if it were done for proper courageous reasons. His motivation is to pre-empt the impending lawsuit and belies his cowardice.


As to your point regarding the straight man who marries someone of the opposite gender for political reasons, I find that repugnant as well. Assuming you feel the same, how can you vote for Kerry?

	13-08-2004 21:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Politicians must have wife (and very preferably also 2 or 3 kids) in order to keep their image in check. It's simply impossible to get your hands on any serious political positions if you don't have those things. Voters must see you as a decent, responsible guy.

I thought Kerry used to be single (while he was in Congress)...

	13-08-2004 21:11									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe That would assume that McGreevey would be courting that vote which I think unlikely. More likely he was attempting main stream moderate cover.

I assumed nothing of the kind, because I am inclined, from my own experiences and that of others, to think he was closeted for personal reasons, not political ones. I know many closeted homosexuals, none of whom are in politics.

quote: The point I was making is that it is unlikely McGreevey did not know of his confusion over his sexuality at the point of his second marriage and in point of fact it was a very likely cause for his first divorce (evidenced by the assumption that his inlaws were aware that he was gay).

Being confused over one's sexuality is precisely the problem that leads people to such marriages. You've got the message coming from some groups that being gay is a choice and one can change or suppress being that way. You've got the societal message that being gay is wrong, and most people don't want to be considered to be "wrong." You have familial pressure, as well. McGreevey comes from Catholic family, and we have no idea how they would think about it. When you get to be in your 20s and have lived a lie for so long, often based on thinking like, "it's just a phase, I'll grow out of it," you can see how the situation can spiral out of control.

As for his inlaws, I'm not sure how reliable that claim is, but it again could be a case where they felt he was gay, but McGreevey himself hadn't acknowledged it to himself. I was gay long before I realized and accepted I was gay, if that makes sense.

quote: This being the case, to go into a second marriage for presumably political expedience and cover is disingenuous to, at a minimum, his second wife.

Disingenuous, providing it was an intentional and conscious deceit on his part. Again, if at the time he married her he was still in denial about his sexuality, I'd be hard pressed to blame him for the course of action that he took. I don't like it, but I can see how it happened, and have seen it happen before.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced his wife was unaware of her husband's sexuality, anyway. We've seen in Europe cases where a gay politician's wife was fully in the know and it was basically an understanding they had. McGreevey certainly knew that to be successful in politics takes an image of being a family man, which is hard for gay men to have in this day and age.

quote: What is more important tho' is that the man has a character flaw that belies his personal courage. (Only under threat of being outed by a lawsuit does he respond for spin control purpose).

I think you're downplaying the courage it takes to come out, and moreso to do so publicly like this. It's humiliating, to say the least. Now, were McGreevey truly a moral coward, I think he would have dug in his heels and denied the charges, fighting it tooth and nail. It seems to me you put him in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Republicans claimed Clinton should do the "honorable thing" and fully admit his affair with Lewinsky and resign from the Presidency. McGreevey is doing just that--before the allegations were made public, btw--and now he's still acting dishonorably?

quote: Put it this way, Barney Frank deserves much more commendation than McGreevey for having the moral courage to be openly gay (even despite Frank's own admittedly scandalled career)

I wouldn't disagree, but I don't think the comparison diminishes McGreevey's act. Maybe it's not as signficant, but it is significant nonetheless.

quote: Your point is valid tho' that I have no first hand knowledge of his personal situation, but that hasn't stopped anyone here at 'poly from posting anything now has it?

When it comes to matters of politics, it's natural, but when it comes to matters of sexual orientation, I would hope you'd utilize the resources available here (i.e., gay posters who have been in the closet) before making such assumptions about McGreevey's motivations.

	13-08-2004 21:12									#70
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It's still selfish to take a wife to get into politics. He should have chosen another proefession.

Leave the available women to us straight guys dammit!

	13-08-2004 21:13									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe As to your point regarding the straight man who marries someone of the opposite gender for political reasons, I find that repugnant as well. Assuming you feel the same, how can you vote for Kerry?

Unless you have evidence beyond your own biased speculation to support a claim Kerry did such a thing, this is a rather despicable aspersion.

	13-08-2004 21:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk So...does this make him America's first gay governor, or what?

No. Jim Thompson of Illinois in the 80s was strongly rumoured to be gay.

	13-08-2004 21:19									#73
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It makes him the first openly gay governor, though, which I think was the point.

	13-08-2004 21:25									#74
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Boris,

You and I will have to agree to disagree. I fully recognize the situation McGreevey faced with having to out himself was humiliating and likely terrifying. I also think he analyzed his legal and political situation and knew full well he had no other recourse to take the action he did. Left to only one viable course of action, does that imply courage? Face it, his political capital was almost completely spent and left him no other option than to try to claim some form of noble appearance of being courageous enough to come out of the closet.

Since you invoked repubs and Clinton, I assume then you think it was courageous of Nixxon to step down for the greater good of the country, no?

	13-08-2004 21:27									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Unless you have evidence beyond your own biased speculation to support a claim Kerry did such a thing, this is a rather despicable aspersion.

You obviously didn't see the smilie now did you?

	13-08-2004 21:28									#76
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quote: It seems to me you put him in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Republicans claimed Clinton should do the "honorable thing" and fully admit his affair with Lewinsky and resign from the Presidency. McGreevey is doing just that--before the allegations were made public, btw--and now he's still acting dishonorably?

Being a democrat in office is dishonorable to start with.

	13-08-2004 21:34									#77
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quote: It makes him the first openly gay governor, though, which I think was the point.

True, but I'd hope the homosexual community won't put him up as a role model for it. There are so many better people to look up to for being gay... McGreevey ain't one of them (even though it did take some guts to admit it).

	13-08-2004 21:40									#78
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damn gays are stealing our women!

I won't shut up about this

	13-08-2004 21:41									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui (even though it did take some guts to admit it).

Et tu Imran?

	13-08-2004 21:42									#80
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Well it ain't an easy thing to admit. I agree with Boris, he could have gone the Clinton route and denied, denied, denied.

	13-08-2004 21:55									#81
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Interesting article how corruption plays into this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5694815/

quote: WASHINGTON - The public doesn't yet know the full story of New Jersey Gov. Jim McGreevey's resignation, which he announced on Thursday, but won’t be effective until Nov. 15. In their immediate reactions Thursday, some New Jersey residents sensed that things weren’t quite as they appeared with McGreevey’s announcement. "To each his own," Vera Allen of Newark told the Associated Press after hearing word of the governor’s gay confession and planned resignation. "As long as he's doing his job, it shouldn't make a difference." She added, "As long as his wife could deal with it (McGreevey’s gay liaison), it shouldn't matter. Tell me how many people out there had an affair. The president had one," she said, alluding to President Clinton. McGreevey himself said at one point in his statement, “It makes little difference that as governor I am gay.” If so, why not finish his term and make history as America’s first openly gay governor, getting praise from gay rights groups for his courage? State support for gay rights If a governor in Kentucky or Utah suddenly revealed he’d been carrying on an adulterous homosexual affair, that might compel him to resign. But New Jersey is a socially liberal state with a gay rights record. In the most recent legislative scorecard issued by the gay advocacy group, the Human Rights Campaign, both of New Jersey’s senators got a perfect 100 percent score from the HRC, as did seven of its 13 House members, while two others got above-average 67 percent ratings. New Jersey was the state where, in 1999, Boy Scout leader James Dale, after being ousted from his scoutmaster position because he was gay, successfully sued under the state’s law prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination, with the New Jersey Supreme Court unanimously ruling in his favor. Just as pretending to be straight has sometimes been a smokescreen for being gay, in McGreevey’s case, the admission of being gay — which once would have been shocking, but is no longer so in the era of "Will & Grace" — seemed to be a diversion from something else. “The fact of this affair and my own sexuality, if kept secret, leaves me, and most importantly the governor's office, vulnerable to rumors, false allegations and threats of disclosure,” McGreevey said Thursday. Threat of disclosure Politicians deal with rumors and false allegations nearly every day, usually brushing them away as annoyances. But what about “threats of disclosure”? Disclosure of what? The governor disclosed the fact of his gay romance Thursday, which should have ended its potency as blackmail. But sources close to McGreevey told the Associated Press and other news organizations that the man with whom McGreevey had his romance was Golan Cipel, an Israeli whom McGreevey appointed in 2002 to be his closest adviser on counterterrorism, at an annual cost to New Jersey’s taxpayers of $110,000 a year. "Golan has served in the Israeli military. He is uniquely qualified to point out weaknesses," McGreevey told the Bergen Record in February of 2002. McGreevey said Cipel had offered "invaluable insights" into security issues. State legislators protested that Cipel was unqualified and within weeks McGreevey was forced to shunt him to another job (still at a cost of $110,000 a year) because as a non-citizen, he was ineligible for security clearances, and the Secret Service and FBI would not provide intelligence to him. A McGreevey aide told the Associated Press Thursday that Cipel had threatened McGreevey with a lawsuit unless he were paid "millions of dollars.” Link to donor Cipel is another link between McGreevey and his former top donor, Charles Kushner, who was charged last month with obstructing a federal investigation into his business dealings by hiring two prostitutes to set up videotaped encounters with potential witnesses against him. In 2001, Kushner sponsored Cipel’s work visa, allowing him to enter the United States. McGreevey's announcement Thursday sets a sort of milestone for gay politicians, just as did the election 30 years ago of Kathy Kozachenko, the first openly gay person to win elective office in the United States when she won a seat on the Ann Arbor, Mich. city council. The first openly gay governor is also the first openly gay governor to be forced to quit under a cloud of governmental and financial, not sexual, scandal. In this sense, the McGreevey case is now establishing a kind of equality of treatment for gay and straight politicians: Kentucky Gov. Paul Patton, a Democrat, left office in late 2003, in disrepute due to a scandal involving his appointment to a state board of a woman with whom he later admitted to having an "inappropriate personal relationship" and his alleged use of state agencies to retaliate against her after the relationship went sour. In the wake of the Patton scandal, Republican Ernie Fletcher, won election as Kentucky’s governor. If McGreevey is formally charged with misusing the powers of his office by appointing Cipel, New Jersey voters, long inundated by indictments and investigations of their elected officials, may feel a need to demonstrate their revulsion at the ballot box. But unlike voters in Kentucky in 2003, they can’t demonstrate it by voting in a Republican governor on Election Day. That is because McGreevey, by delaying his resignation, has ensured that there will be no special election for governor this year. Voters will need to wait until November of 2005 to elect a new one. McGreevey's gambit resembles the maneuver New Jersey Democratic leaders, including McGreevey himself, used in September 2002 to pull Sen. Robert Torricelli off the ballot three days after a poll showed him losing by 13 points to Republican underdog Doug Forrester. Torricelli had been reprimanded by the Senate Ethics Committee for accepting gifts from a campaign contributor. McGreevey was standing by Torricelli's side at the press conference at which Torricelli bowed out of the race, making way for former Sen. Frank Lautenberg who succeeded in holding the seat for the Democrats. Can Bush compete in Jersey? The importance of the McGreevey affair for George Bush and John Kerry is that there is a real scandal, below the non-scandalous revelation of McGreevey being gay, which just might put New Jersey closer to being in play in the presidential race. Four years ago, Democrat Al Gore won New Jersey by more than 500,000 votes (nearly 16 percentage points). It was never going to be easy for Bush to make New Jersey a battleground this year. New Jersey was far from a battleground before McGreevey’s announcement. In an Aug. 5 poll Quinnipiac University found that Kerry enjoyed a 49 percent to 36 percent lead over Bush among New Jersey voters, with 6 percent opting for independent Ralph Nader.

	13-08-2004 21:58									#82
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Which was the point I was making that his political capital is spent.

	13-08-2004 21:59									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I also think he analyzed his legal and political situation and knew full well he had no other recourse to take the action he did.

Again, damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. This just amounts to speculation, and whether or not it were the case, you'd be saying the same thing, it seems.

quote: Since you invoked repubs and Clinton, I assume then you think it was courageous of Nixxon to step down for the greater good of the country, no?

Ford's description of a "long national nightmare" was apt. No, I don't think Nixon acted courageously or honorably, because he really waited until cornered. He didn't step down when the scandal broke, he clung to power until a bipartisan congress was set to impeach him and it was clear he couldn't win. And what he was hit with was clearly a political matter.

I don't think Clinton acted courageously, to be sure, but I don't think he acted dishonorably vis-a-vis impeachment, either. It was a crap case that was totally politically-motivated and he did the right thing by riding it out. Now, he certainly acted dishonorably as far as his relationship w/ Lewinsky is concerned, but that was a personal matter, not a political one.

	13-08-2004 22:01									#84
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quote: He didn't step down when the scandal broke, he clung to power until a bipartisan congress was set to impeach him and it was clear he couldn't win. And what he was hit with was clearly a political matter.

Isn't that somewhat like McGreevey though? He is stepping down when he is getting sued for sexual harrasment and his corruption scandel has been going on since at least 2001, and now is about to totally hit the fan.

	13-08-2004 22:02									#85
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That was the point I was making Imran.

* Ogie Oglethorpe removes dagger and hands to Imran.

	13-08-2004 22:04									#86
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Not exactly... I thought Nixon was courageous for stepping down and not fighting the impeachment.

Also that doesn't mean I still don't think it was a somewhat courageous move to actually get up there and say it. He could have stayed and fought.

	13-08-2004 22:07									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't that somewhat like McGreevey though? He is stepping down when he is getting sued for sexual harrasment and his corruption scandel has been going on since at least 2001, and now is about to totally hit the fan.

No, because McGreevey headed it off before the scandal broke and took a pretty swift step to neutralize the worst political fallout. As you noted, this is different from clinging on. Were he to be like Nixon, he would have waited for the scandal to break in the press, deny everything and attack his opponents, and then cling on through a tumultuous process that became a nightmare for everyone in the state until he was forced out through impeachment or the threat of it (like the former CT governor). In doing this, McGreevey has indeed saved NJ from a lot of tumult, politically-motivated or not.

	13-08-2004 22:15									#88
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this is an anti-gay political witch-hunt...

repukes it's sad they've become the party of gay-haters

	13-08-2004 22:16									#89
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I see now,

Bravery equates to intelligence.

If one is smart enough to see that the fight is nonwinnable soon enough, then one is brave by not fighting.

OTOH, If one is unwise enough to attempt to fight the inevitable then one is a coward.

Finally, some would argue Clinton was brave to fight the good fight against the evil vindictive repubs.

Got it.