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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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Here's a chat with FortyJ who says, basically, that they don't 100% believe GWT, but that the 'evidence' supports their claims and there's no provable evidence o cheating by GWT. The only issue to decide is that of how to handle E_T's punishment.
quote:
Session Start: Thu Aug 12 00:00:00 2004
Session Ident: #ISDGFAMTALKS
[00:49:07] * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away
[00:52:56] * Disconnected
Session Close: Thu Aug 12 00:52:58 2004
Session Start: Thu Aug 12 21:05:03 2004
Session Ident: #ISDGFAMTALKS
[21:05:03] *
[21:05:03] * Now talking in: (#ISDGFAMTALKS)
[21:05:03] *
[21:05:03] * Topic: (Greetings! Please type"/notice (nick) Hello" for us when you enter this channel so that we know you are here. We will respond as soon as we can. Thanks.  )
[21:05:03] * Set by: (BigFree) on (Monday January 05 2004 20:13:07)
[21:05:03] * Users: (4), Ops: (1/25%), Voiced: (0/0%), Regs: (3/75%)
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[21:05:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o BigFree
[21:05:05] * BigFree sets mode: +ps
[21:09:00] * FortyJ (~fortyj@user-1120jrc.dsl.mindspring.com) has joined #isdgfamtalks
[21:10:20] FortyJ} greetings all
[21:10:28] Togas} yo
[21:10:29] BigFree} hola
[21:10:59] FortyJ} what's happening here?
[21:11:28] BigFree} nada
[21:11:30] Togas} idling
[21:11:48] BigFree} thanks for your work. 
[21:12:05] FortyJ} Master Zen passed on my PM, then?
[21:12:08] BigFree} It must have been a pain to sift through it all
[21:12:12] BigFree} yes, he did
[21:12:32] BigFree} I don't think MZ is around atm
[21:12:41] * BigFree is searching for MZ + goatsex on yahoo. WEEE 889 Hits!
[21:13:14] FortyJ} lol
[21:13:39] BigFree} can I ask a few questions concerning your investigation?
[21:14:21] FortyJ} go ahead
[21:14:40] BigFree} Why all the questions as too intent? Does it have to do with units "suddenly" moving into another tile while it''s history of movements before hand was rather static?
[21:15:17] FortyJ} you're referring to our informational chats?
[21:15:21] BigFree} yes
[21:15:46] BigFree} the questions you asked regarding our intent; I can only infer you questioned GWT the same
[21:15:47] FortyJ} it's something Luc and I thought we should do to try to get as much insight into the situation as possible.
[21:16:12] FortyJ} also a way to break the ice between us and the teams and gain access to forums (if necessary) and learn a bit about the players playing the game, etc.
[21:16:45] * Kloreep (~ben@user-0vvddbh.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #isdgfamtalks
[21:16:46] Kloreep} Hi
[21:16:55] FortyJ} howdy Kloreep
[21:18:06] BigFree} The reason I ask is simple: If GWT had had the galleys at a certain position for a certain amount of time, then suddenly, moved them into positions in which they were able to detect our arrival..then that would surely look suspecious. I was wondering if your line of questioning was based upon that or not.
[21:18:37] BigFree} Also, there would be no way to show any cheating had occured.
[21:18:54] BigFree} Just an inference of something loking fishy is all.
[21:18:58] FortyJ} True. Proof of cheating would be very difficult to obtain.
[21:19:19] BigFree} So, I'm thinking that's why you had the questions of "intent"
[21:19:55] BigFree} Sort of like Matlock (TV series lawyer)
[21:20:01] FortyJ}
[21:20:12] FortyJ} Sadly, I can't hold a candle to him.
[21:20:15] BigFree} lol
[21:21:38] FortyJ} The chats were essentially a means of making contact and attempting to gleam a little about the characters of the players involved - were they open to discussion? did they seem standoff-ish? etc.
[21:21:53] BigFree} I had mentioned to my teammates that it is entirely possible for only one person on GWT to cheat, by getting troops positons of APO, and then using that info to get his team to move their Galley's around in such a way to detect us. But, there would be no way to prove such a thing.
[21:22:15] FortyJ} Our decisions were ultimately based on more concrete evidence that came to light just recently, after many hours of pouring over screenshots, forums, etc.
[21:22:31] BigFree} you had access to GWT's forums?
[21:22:37] FortyJ} yes
[21:22:44] BigFree} why nto ours?
[21:23:33] FortyJ} I'd like to have it too, but in this instance, accessing yours would quite likely not have shed any light on whether or not GWT acted fairly or not. 
[21:23:58] BigFree} ok
[21:24:01] BigFree} I understand
[21:24:21] BigFree} That was a huge blow to us
[21:24:29] BigFree} Taking their FP was huge
[21:24:39] BigFree} not taking it hurts a lot
[21:24:46] FortyJ} and if I had just come out and said to GWT - "I need to see your forums" - it quite likely would have tipped them off to something they merely suspected beforehand.
[21:25:00] BigFree} right
[21:25:04] FortyJ} that they were the reason for the suspension of play.
[21:25:07] FortyJ}
[21:25:22] FortyJ} so we needed a way to get to their forums without coming out and asking for it.
[21:25:30] BigFree} sneaky devil
[21:25:39] FortyJ} you have no idea 
[21:26:37] BigFree} On a personal note, do you think any "cheating" by determining troop positions by any means, was used by a memeber of GWT? I meanI'm asking for your gut feeling on this.
[21:26:39] FortyJ} When we used to play Diplomacy in college, some of the guys called me "the Great Satan". I'm quite proud of that.
[21:26:50] BigFree} Not to be repeated outside of here
[21:27:39] FortyJ} I'm reluctant to answer that, but I'll brave it....
[21:28:35] FortyJ} At first, I was highly suspicious, but now, I'm almost 100% certain that they did not.
[21:30:07] FortyJ} Our (Luc's and my) official stance is that there is sufficient evidence to indicate that GWT acted honorably in this instance.
[21:33:01] FortyJ} But, we are willing to let you replay the current turn without restrictions - so feel free to gleam from that whatever morsels of truth that you can.
[21:34:37] BigFree} lol
[21:34:40] BigFree} ok thanks
[21:35:06] FortyJ} basically, we're convinced that they didn't cheat outright, but not 100
[21:35:07] BigFree} So, the turn that we find the LZ blocked, we can replay?
[21:35:18] FortyJ} not 100% convinced, so we're willing to give you a do-over.
[21:35:29] BigFree} and GWT is ok with that as well?
[21:36:39] FortyJ} GWT has not been contacted as to our findings. It was not their inquiry. Bear in mind that this is not some gift or underhanded offer. That is not our intent.
[21:37:31] BigFree} Yes, I understand. But, i want to make sure that GWt won't bring it up asking if APO moved in a different wya than we did the first time that brought the inquiry on.
[21:39:32] FortyJ} Sorry... I'm also checking on the little storm headed my way while we're chatting.
[21:41:52] BigFree} no problem
[21:41:52] FortyJ} Alot depends on what we announce in our official post.
[21:42:03] BigFree} Ok, i will wait and see
[21:42:15] BigFree} Really, we appreciate your work
[21:42:25] BigFree} Some have asked if you have a pay pal account
[21:42:36] Kloreep} Heh
[21:42:40] FortyJ} hah... maybe I should look into that.
[21:42:56] BigFree} imagine a paid admin positon
[21:43:06] BigFree} a lot of people would go for it I think
[21:43:26] BigFree} people put a lot into theses game (maybe too much in the case of ET)
[21:43:28] Kloreep} But everyone would want to pay the larger amount
[21:44:47] FortyJ} What we need to know is what you intend to do about ET and if you wish us to make that issue public knowledge.
[21:45:25] BigFree} we are dicussing it now
[21:46:09] BigFree} some think it should b made public that a "member" of APO did a wrong and has been punished for it. GWT, I think, already knows who it is.
[21:46:25] Kloreep} I don't think they do
[21:46:25] BigFree} they dont want to mention ET by name
[21:46:54] BigFree} But we fully support your decison to suspend him
[21:47:04] BigFree} It's a very gracious offer
[21:47:15] BigFree} for the act performed
[21:48:28] FortyJ} I'm not sure what he did, nor what he could have uncovered from simply moving the units differently. I'm not sure he could've proven anything without seeing the board from GWT's POV.
[21:49:09] BigFree} yeah, possibly. I don't think he tried to cheat; he was try to "prove" GWT had.
[21:49:35] FortyJ} I don't even know ET, but I imagine that's exactly what happened.
[21:50:07] BigFree} I don't think he may have seen anything that truly affects the outcome of the game; but, he did wrong. Whether or not that wrong hurts GWT is moot to the point of the fact he went against the rules.
[21:50:32] Kloreep} Yes, he wasn't trying to gain an advantage for APO, he was trying to see if GWT cheated
[21:50:44] Kloreep} Nevertheless, he should never have done any different moves in a hostile, contested zone
[21:50:52] BigFree} exactly
[21:51:18] BigFree} If you run a red light and don't hurt anyone, you still get a ticket becasue you "could have"
[21:51:49] BigFree} though, the punishment is often worse for the red light offense if someone was hurt
[21:52:14] BigFree} So, I'm guessing GWT was not hurt by ET's play
[21:52:29] BigFree} Else, you would hang him!
[21:52:32] BigFree}
[21:53:04] FortyJ}
[21:53:28] FortyJ} maybe sentence him to be an admin for a month or so.
[21:55:42] BigFree} haha
[21:57:11] BigFree} we can have what our feelings for a public/semi-public/private aknowledgement about ET's crime in a about 3 days.
[21:57:22] BigFree} Should we play the turn now and ghet the game moving?
[21:57:25] FortyJ} it just occured to me what ET might have done that might have led him to conclude that GWT cheated.
[21:58:06] FortyJ} but, as I stated before, there is sufficient evidence that you all fell victim to bad timing rather than foul play.
[21:58:10] BigFree} well, only you would know, since ET did not share his findings; only that it seemed to confirm, for him, that GWT did cheat.
[22:05:54] FortyJ} btw, have you all discussed which victory you're shooting for yet?
[22:09:46] FortyJ} well, there's the first of the rains.
[22:09:55] FortyJ} ...and so, it begins...
[22:10:08] Kloreep} We've discussed some
[22:10:16] Kloreep} Domination and Spaceship are the two still on our radar
[22:10:48] FortyJ} interesting.
[22:12:05] FortyJ} It looks like I've got an early morning tomorrow - checking on the status of this storm and determining if we're going to be working and all that jazz.
[22:12:15] FortyJ} I'm gonna sign off and try to get some shuteye.
[22:12:59] FortyJ} Do me a favor, and let me know what you decide with respect to the announcement.
[22:13:15] * Togas (Togas@c-67-181-169-46.client.comcast.net) has left #isdgfamtalks
[22:13:26] BigFree} okey
[22:13:31] BigFree} thanks again
[22:14:34] FortyJ} One last thing re: the replay of your turn... it's an option. You could, if you wanted to, retrace your actions perfectly (assuming you can remember everything you did). It's your choice.
[22:15:33] FortyJ} good night guys. and good luck with your plans in the game.
[22:15:40] Kloreep} Night
[22:17:45] FortyJ} Oh, and I doubt I need to say this, but I'll do so anyway. Whatever you told me in here will not be repeated by me to anyone other than Luc. You have strict confidentiality with me from the moment I agreed to do this.
[22:18:10] FortyJ} now... g'night.
[22:18:23] * FortyJ (~fortyj@user-1120jrc.dsl.mindspring.com) Quit (Quit: )
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13-08-2004 10:48
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