13-08-2004 21:17									#1
	2127 End turn + 2128 Discussion Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Not much going on this turn.

Populations:

Gaians: 6
Yang: 23
Angels: 6
Morganites: 7 (8 next turn)
Spartans: 8

I don't have time to double check things right now, so I won't hit end turn until after I get back from work in about 12 hours. Feel free to make comments on the more or less complete save in the meantime.

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	13-08-2004 21:19									#2
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We're building a Litigator (standard Probe Team) at Scorpi Ski Resort. A former should probably be next... we need more. The base we'll found next turn should definitely do a former first.

Attachment: acdg3-morgan-2127_endturn.zip
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	13-08-2004 23:28									#3
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One question about worker allocation: Is the nut focus at Impaler Polymers and Vulcanology intentional or just accidental? At ImpPoly we could gain one mineral and at MorVul one mineral and one energy per turn by sacrificing nuts and growth.

I would suggest finishing the first crawler (or even the first two) ASAP and concentrate on growth after that when making the crawlers for the HGP so that ideally the second citizen will come two turns before the PTS finishes.

Regarding formers, well, they should begin making forests soon, preferably one forest per base. Forests on rivers like to expand, at least they did in the minigame. We won't really be able to support more than one former per base until PTS anyway...

Anyone an idea what the dent in the Hive powergraph may have caused? Population hasn't, is constant at 23.

Intelligence report, the Angels are still Simple and not Planned. They are definitely playing a different strategy than in the minigame. They haven't had IndEcon by that time either so maybe they will go Market as soon as they can afford it and are sacrificing Flex for it.

BTW, compared to the minigame we are currently a few years ahead, in bases as well as in tech despite having a bit less fertile land.

	14-08-2004 02:17									#4
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One of the components of a faction's strength is its military strength. That is calculated by adding the total attack strength of all of a faction's military units and divide it by the strength of the strongest weapon. Someone might have just researched impactor weaponry.

	14-08-2004 03:40									#5
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I just got the ability to download and view the Saves again.

I notice that we should have the tech for HGP and Rec Tanks in 2 turns, but that we only have one crawler now and it appears that not enough will be built within the next two years to rush the HGP then. I understand that we will not rush every SP as soon as we can but it would be nice to get it built as soon as possible.

Another observation (from a Morgan newbie), our energy output right now is very directly linked to the number of bases we have because of the small base size and lack of improvements. I guess that will change somewhat once we have more time (and formers) to improve the land. Although for now, the sooner we get more bases the sooner we get more cash.


Mead

	14-08-2004 10:38									#6
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That could be either Spartans or Uni with Impact weapons. Perhaps the Hive, too, dunno about his tech rates or beelines...

I'd expect the first SP (our HGP...) be finished in about 10 years time, remember we're the first to have IA at all (a direct beeline, wasn't it?). We won't most probably cash in every crawler we have ASAP for the HGP but keep ~2 per base and cash them in when we have enough additional crawlers for the PTS.

For a Morgan early game it is not unusual to have the base squares contribute at least half the energy: 6-8 energy from base square Market/Wealth, 3 workers * ~2 energy (forest and/or river) = another ~6 energy.

	14-08-2004 11:26									#7
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Good observations on the power graph. My hope is that it's someone's discovery of Laser Weapons, not Impact, that changed the power graph.

"Is the nut focus at Impaler Polymers and Vulcanology intentional or just accidental?"
Inertial is the word I'd use. I was going to calculate how long it would take to pump out the crawlers necessary for HGP and the next round of CP's, then try to time base growth around it. Still haven't done it... will try to do that... if growth can wait, then I'll switch to the better mineral squares. CP's still return more resources than crawlers (once we have enough crawlers for HGP), so I'd like to do a round of CP's right after this round of crawlers. The new bases can then contribute crawlers toward PTS. Besides, we don't have a lot of easy-access forest to place a bunch of crawlers ATM.

	14-08-2004 11:35									#8
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Forest via gang forming takes 2 turns per new forest, everything is roaded, two bases are in Mt. Drouge vicinity so there shouldn't be too much shortage on 2 min squares.

At the moment, new CPs won't help us much since they would incite b-drones throughout the older bases and although they make more energy we lose 2 worker-minerals at our older bases.

Do you plan to cash-in every crawler for HGP or keep 2 crawlers per base until the PTS is ready. (I had posted a spreadsheet about that some time ago that the second way might well be quicker)
CPs will be somewhere there in between to get those bases down to size 1 before PTS.

	14-08-2004 11:44									#9
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Sorry, I'm too tired to confidently work out details. I hope you don't mind waiting another ten hours for me to finish this turn in the morning. I promise to work on this base growth vs. crawler production thing. In the future, I'll try to keep us planning ahead with details like this so playing the turn is more routine and we can keep the pace swift.

	14-08-2004 23:36									#10
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Ok, I posted the turn for Sparta with one little change... I switched to formers at Scorpi Ski. The litigator will be delayed a few years, but I think that's ok because no CP's will be heading up north for at least ten years. This way, we can road those yummy volcano squares so the crawlers that start coming out in 3-5 years have somewhere to go.

For the growth vs. minerals issue, we can build CP's pretty quickly after getting this round of crawlers out, especially since we'll have the volcano better roaded. Getting to two population will be the limiting factor in how soon we can get to the second b-limit. If we stick with working nuts, we can have a good compromise of everything and we'll be huge before you know it.

	14-08-2004 23:49									#11
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Ok, let's focus on next turn so it goes more smoothly...

There will be a new base... we could go with "City of ZZT". I think that was #endgame's idea. If anybody wants to start a poll for a name, that's fine, too. The new base could rush a former. In that case, we'd have three formers ready at that square in 2129. They could spend just two turns on the energy bonus to solar it. Earlier I hesitated to do it so early, but with a team of three, it won't take long. The other former over there could start roading to the forest west of Mor Ind. The other formers could catch up later to help road toward a base site near the NW min bonus.

One of the formers that will be ready at Scorpi Ski can road NW of the volcano peak, and the other can head via the road on the peak to W of the peak. By 2132, this will connect three two-min squares by road to Polymers, where I imagine we'd build HGP. Edit: The former roading the rolling square W of the peak could head S from there, road, then E and road. The former NW of the peak could build its second road NE of the peak.

One more small change I made to the turn was maneuvering the scout N and ordering it to head back SE. This way, it will get a fungus defense bonus if Yang turns on us. It will also be an effective ZOC (zone of control) blocker if the probe is destroyed or moves. The probe might be free then to explore SE as well.

Do you guys think we should re-home the RFR crawler to Mor Ind?

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 14-08-2004 at 23:56

	15-08-2004 00:17									#12
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Sorry for doing post after post, but hey, the brain is spewing out thoughts so they have to be written down, right?

Mor Ind is producing 11 labs right now. Considering typical non-FM bases produce maybe two at the base square and two with a worker, they probably produce two labs per base. Mor Ind is almost a faction unto itself!

CwMead... Since we're the only ones with IA right now, the discovery of Biogen is not the "deadline" it might be. With CBA (just as an illustration since it's not allowed in this game), you hopefully build it the same turn you discover MMI. But since no one else really has any capacity to build HGP until after they get IA and Biogen, we have some time to use the crawlers instead of cashing them in. I also agree that bases are the key to power at this stage.

AndiD, this is the sequence I envision to prevent b-drones but maximize base-count (=power):

Build six crawlers (one done, five in progress). Crawl two mins if possible.
Start five CP's.
Move the CP's toward their sites.
Build HGP.
Found bases. HGP quiets b-drones.
Build ten to twelve crawlers (roughly one at each base).
Build six more CP's and build PTS immediately after all or most base populations go back to one. We'll need some psych when building PTS since we're already at the second b-limit.
Move CP's to their sites and found bases, putting us at 18 bases. Choice: more psych or go with Democracy.
Analyze power graph, pick up jaw off the floor and wipe off drool.

	15-08-2004 00:59									#13
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Turn details:
I would confine the formers to foresting only now (and a roading of course). Solars are luxury ATM. (I'd rather forest the solar...)

Future building plan:
Do your build plans include formers or "only" crawlers (from 10 free minerals) and colony pods?

Problems I see:

quote: Move CPs toward their sites. Build HGP.

Each waiting CP is costing us a mineral per turn. When cashing in the crawlers we lose our gained "industrial might" immediately. Or do you mean with "Build HGP" "Build new crawlers and cash them in for the HGP?"

quote: Build ten to twelve crawlers (roughly one at each base).

That would work skipping formers (10 free minerals, 3 minerals / turn => rushed crawler takes 3 turns) but without new formers it will be pretty difficult to ensure that every base has a 2+ nut square reading to prevent starvation on PTS arrival.

Generally, one or two bases will be working on probe foils as soon as we get Flex so those won't take part in the crawler building effort for quite some time.


I wonder whether the following sequence might be better:
. Build crawlers and terraform base sites ("generation 1") until every base has two crawlers harvesting two minerals each.
. Build crawlers for the HGP (2-3 turns / crawler), build HGP.
. Build CPs (3 turns), move CPs toward their sites.
. Found bases ("generation 2"). HGP quiets b-drones.
. Generation 2 bases build formers from first 10 minerals.
. Generation 1 bases build a few crawlers more if necessary (still ~2 turns/crawler).
. Prepare every base site for the PTS (2+ nut square)
. Cash every crawler in for the PTS. Workers occupy forest the crawlers had left behind.
. Bases of both generations build crawlers for the PEG.
. Bases of both generations build a 2nd former or CPs.
. Prepare future base sites (2+ nut square) and found new bases ASAP.

This approach plays both well with early Dem against b-drones (Generations 1 and 2) or psych covered by the PEG.

Even quicker would be not cashing in the crawlers for PTS but the PEG, downside here is the probable lack of 2 min squares at the base sites.

Open for discussion. (Chat?)

	15-08-2004 01:09									#14
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Here's the ugly spreadsheet I mentioned somewhere else:

Attachment: crawler-sp-rushing_v4.xls
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	15-08-2004 10:00									#15
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quote: Originally posted by AndiD Turn details: I would confine the formers to foresting only now (and a roading of course). Solars are luxury ATM. (I'd rather forest the solar...)

It might seem like I'm contradicting myself. I switched out a probe for a former but then advocated spending time on an expensive solar. Roads to new base sites and two-mineral squares are in demand. However, for only a little more investment than a forest, we can get 6 energy from that square. Crawling that's worth more than 2 minerals IMO.

quote: Future building plan: Do your build plans include formers or "only" crawlers (from 10 free minerals) and colony pods?

My approach is to cash in crawlers for PTS quickly, because you gain more from the workers than the crawlers you gave up. Crawlers toward PTS return more than formers. Formers are easy to build afterward.

quote: Each waiting CP is costing us a mineral per turn. When cashing in the crawlers we lose our gained "industrial might" immediately. Or do you mean with "Build HGP" "Build new crawlers and cash them in for the HGP?"

I wouldn't have the CP's waiting around. Hopefully we can time the rush-building and travel so that they'll set down at close to the same time. Considering a lot of bases will grow to size two around the same time, that shouldn't be too difficult.

quote: That would work skipping formers (10 free minerals, 3 minerals / turn => rushed crawler takes 3 turns) but without new formers it will be pretty difficult to ensure that every base has a 2+ nut square reading to prevent starvation on PTS arrival.

All of our proposed base sites already have a 2 nut square, if not several. PTS can be built pretty care free, except for some psych.

quote: Generally, one or two bases will be working on probe foils as soon as we get Flex so those won't take part in the crawler building effort for quite some time.

We'll have twelve bases in about 10-12 years, and we'll only need ten crawlers for PTS, and six more CP's. So there should be some room for building a couple probe foils.

quote: I wonder whether the following sequence might be better: . Build crawlers and terraform base sites ("generation 1") until every base has two crawlers harvesting two minerals each.

Terraforming several forests at each gen1 base and roading to future base sites is a tall order for seven formers.

quote: . Build crawlers for the HGP (2-3 turns / crawler), build HGP. . Build CPs (3 turns), move CPs toward their sites.

Why not delay HGP until the turn you put down a CP or two? Again, don't have the CP's sitting around, but at least keep the crawlers until the last minute.

quote: . Found bases ("generation 2"). HGP quiets b-drones. . Generation 2 bases build formers from first 10 minerals. . Generation 1 bases build a few crawlers more if necessary (still ~2 turns/crawler). . Prepare every base site for the PTS (2+ nut square) . Cash every crawler in for the PTS. Workers occupy forest the crawlers had left behind. . Bases of both generations build crawlers for the PEG. . Bases of both generations build a 2nd former or CPs.

I prefer to build all the CP's just before PTS. That way you don't have a bunch of cities stuck at size two for a long time.

quote: . Prepare future base sites (2+ nut square) and found new bases ASAP. This approach plays both well with early Dem against b-drones (Generations 1 and 2) or psych covered by the PEG. Even quicker would be not cashing in the crawlers for PTS but the PEG, downside here is the probable lack of 2 min squares at the base sites. Open for discussion. (Chat?)

Building PTS makes it easier to build PEG. Another way to look at it is that PTS gives at least +2 minerals per base (and +2 energy but that's going toward psych), while PEG gives probably +3 ec's per base for the same price of ten crawlers. As long as we have more than ten bases, PTS is better than free. We probably need 15 bases for PEG to pay for itself instantly, assuming roughly 2 ec = 1 min.

	15-08-2004 20:55									#16
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Here's a thought. Instead of building HGP to get to the second b-limit, why not go 20% psych for a while? That's about 2 psych per base, so it will have the same effect as HGP. Then we can use the crawlers to speed production-- 12 minerals from 6 crawlers is worth a little more than 2 psych per base until we pass 12 bases (24 psych). Past 13 bases, we'd need 4 psych per base, and it would be worth it to get HGP at that point.

	15-08-2004 22:13									#17
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HGP instead of Dem for passing the 12 base limit? Nice thought.

So our core bases would make crawlers whenever growth isn't sufficient for a new colony pod, put the crawlers to work and cash "a few" of them in for HGP as soon as we pass the 2nd b-limit. Further expansion after that and a PTS at anytime we like.

How much do 20% psych cost ATM without killing research? How much more crawlers would that be? Maybe a singleplayer testgame would be in order to spot hidden catchs of that strategy...?

We would also need to monitor the Angels research towards IA and Biogen though and maybe adapt our strategy accordingly. They seem to be going towards FM and IA straight this time.

The advantage of our approach is, until we reach a certain number of crawlers we can instabuild the HGP.

	16-08-2004 01:13									#18
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The 20% psych would probably mean (per base): +2 psych, -1 lab, -1 ec. Our mineral production will be quite a bit better, though-- 12 minerals/turn better, to be exact. This will speed CP production and crawler production for PTS. That should more than make up for -1 lab per base.

As far as "catches"... some cities might not produce as much energy, so maybe you have to go 30% psych. This increases the likelihood that high energy bases like Mor Ind would lose 3 or 4 energy to psych. We'd also lose one or two bonus labs from not taking advantage of the Node. I can't think of any other catches, but if anybody wants to try it out in single player, it would be good verification and good practice.

quote: The advantage of our approach is, until we reach a certain number of crawlers we can instabuild the HGP.

Is there a typo in there, or could you explain more?

	16-08-2004 01:25									#19
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Maybe it is a not so good English there from me.

I meant: At that time, we will have so many crawlers hanging around there, we can instabuild the HGP anytime (= x turns after the Angels get IA or somesuch, x would have to be calculated in advance) so that we don't lose it by over-gambling... . If they are really focusing on FM and IA we should keep definitely an eye on them.

Playtesting is very important IMO and I would do it myself but unfortunately I'm in the midst of preparing a 5 month stay in Canada (language course business english with internship afterwards). Playing the daily turn in the minigame is one thing (and a welcome deviation) but playing uninterrupted for several hours is out of the question ATM.

Another catch I spontaneously think about is inefficiency from slider settings! (we aren't at Dem by that time)

	16-08-2004 03:58									#20
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I have to say that I don't like the psych allocation idea, and think that the additional worker that the hgp will allow would be better then a crawler, but if thats what is done then so be it.

For a short to mid term crawler plan how about solaring the top of the mountain and crawling all that to Morgan industries?

	16-08-2004 06:42									#21
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I personally think solaring is a bit of a big ask at the moment, our formers are stretched pretty thin currently. I also believe that we'd be better off with min crawlers since min crawlers->faster hgp->more bases->more energy.

EDIT: And yes, I did want 'City of ZZT'. Like my name, it is a tribute to one of the greatest games ever, ZZT. I might prepare an ad for a MorganLink: #endgame's classic gaming - We don't sell anything less than 100 years old!

--CTO #endgame.

Last edited by #endgame on 16-08-2004 at 14:37