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Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 18-08-2004 07:29 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Long-term Plan of Action Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Here is where we must discuss strategy spanning more than a few turns, and more than a few units. In particular, we have a decision right now:

Do we shoot for the HGP to alleviate bureaucracy, producing probe teams (0-1-1) that can be disbanded for 1/2 value + the stockpile energy kick?

or

Do we use doctors to control b-drones and expand right now?

or

Something else?

There's no point in having a poll here, since new strategies should be encouraged, but cannot be predicted at the start of this thread to put in the poll options.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 18-08-2004 14:17
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The probe option seems somehow weird to me..
IIRC probe cost 30 mins
its 15 mins for SP
We have 6 bases
Each base will take ~ 7turns to produce a probe without much hurrying
6x15 = 90
If we had 1 AA + ~100 Ecs It'd be right what we need

And if we start this strat ASAP (e.g. in the following 3-4 turns) we are likely to finish HGP first

The question is - do we have (I have not seen the game file) an AA/are we going to have it and can we gather 100Ecs in 10 turns?

Possibly even more, as we will be hurrying the probes a bit..

Please share your opinion!

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 18-08-2004 16:20 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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We have 1 AA, and we're making 7 EC/turn (more when base #6 is down). In addition, every time a probe team finishes (0-1-1s cost us 18 now, and disband for 9), we get the stockpile kick for another ~2 ECs.

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 18-08-2004 20:05
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We also need probes for probe actions and possible defense. This is a very strong choice in many departments.

What's weird about the probe disbanding? I never used it much until I played a few crawler-less games with Blake a loooong time ago. Yeah, at first you think 'But I'm wasting minerals!' and that hurts. But think about it another way: You are gaining one of the advantages of crawlers before anyone would suspect it from you.

Strengths of the probe-building strategy are that it is useful in many dimensions, improving our offensive/defensive capabilities, diplomatic options, chance for improving techs, and chance of securing a secret project. There are no inherent weaknesses, other than the 'loss' of minerals for those probes that are disbanded.

Strengths of ICSing before we are ready to absorb the b-drones are largely cancelled out by the paralysis these new bases will incur on 'random' core bases, by the poor defense any new fringe bases will have, should they themselves become a dronepile, and by not focusing our production on an SP. (O.k., that last reason isn't inherent to ICSing early, but it is indirectly related).

The biggest PIA about 1=1 drone bases is their inability to later build rec commons, rec tanks, or crawlers without some help. Often these bases are producing only 1 mineral a turn (unless built on a mineral special). This means that for each drone base, yet another base will have to focus part of it's production on building a crawler for the 1=1 drone base, to alleviate and accellerate the mineral problem. If we happen to be at war during any of this, we become vulnerable as well.

Still, I'd agree that we need to ICS ASAP. I would subscribe to a plan of adding 1-2 more bases now IF we otherwise focus on building an SP and/or infiltrating the enemy. But far better, IMO, would be to focus entirely on a probe army (at bases that are already at full support: former+garrison).

Long term, we must clearly enjoy the beautiful continent we have landed upon and fill it with Gaians. To this end, and pause in ICSing should allow our formers to road and pre-forest where possible. Especial consideration must be given to removing some fungus from the ruins and of course, to building a road into the Uranium Flats

Probe teams and other diplomatic officers should be well informed as to their policies for dealing with encounters with other groups. Should they infiltrate, steal technology, beg, borrow, pact? Let us formulate a plan of diplomatic action now.

Further, the crew of the Unity Foil deserve their first medal. What a service they are rendering in acting as a ferry service for our exploration teams. After escorting a mindworm accross the northern straights, they should be able to turn around and ferry a probe team or two to destinations of diplomatic interest.

Defensively we are weak. However, risk analysis shows that we have already gained turn advantage by taking some risks in this department to focus on CP and Former building. We should not expect enemies to land on our soil anytime soon. Nonetheless, a scout patrol 1-1-1 shell in each base will quell drones and provide the 'cardboard cutout' defense infrastructure that will carry us into the next century.

In the very long term, we must think about offensive actions. It is very unlikely that we will win by sitting at home. Personally, I'd love to make Yang our lapdog.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 19-08-2004 14:56
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Ok, then our Ecs is 7/turn now + 2 for each probe (we need 180 - 50 => 130 / 9 => 10 probes) it's 20 + 1/turn from our new base means..

Ehh..maths

If we presume, we need 10 probes for SP, then:
each probe = 18 mins
each base = 3 mins (we should have all them a bit forasted by then)
18 / 3 = 6 turns/probe

10 probes in 6 bases = 12 turns
10 probes = 20 ecs
12 turns = 8 * 12 = 96 ecs
=
116 ecs

10 probes = 90 mins
1 AA = 50 mins
40 mins left = 160 ecs
116/4 = 29 mins

11 mins left! (to be finished in 4 turns)

therefore if we start in say 2132 (which is the closest date I think), then we finish in
2132 + 12 + 4 = 2148

Which is not the maximal result, but the average..
We should get it sooner tough, otherwise there is a high risj that someone else (most likely Morganites) will grab that project.
The optimal date would be 2140-2145

So, we must pop pods like there's no tomorrow and if (thank gods) in one of them we find an AA, then put all efforts in transporting to our lands ASAP

Credit pod should also be good..

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 19-08-2004 16:45 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We can make more efficient use of our ECs - we can hurry the probe teams as they near completion. In this case, we'd want to pay the full hurry cost, not the minimal hurry cost, as soon as each probe team reaches 10 minerals, until we're dry.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
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Jan 2004
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  Old Post 19-08-2004 18:50
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Provide the math, please!
How fast then we can produce those at least 100 mins needed?

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 20-08-2004 01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
therefore if we start in say 2132 (which is the closest date I think), then we finish in
2132 + 12 + 4 = 2148


Consider not starting the project until we are able to build it in one turn, and also factor in maximal last-row probe rushing at all our bases. Without the math, I'd guess that these two factors would play out to about 2-4 turns earlier, and with complete surprise (barring infiltration). Also consider that 2+ probes will be tasked to off-shore duty.

-S

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 20-08-2004 12:51
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I didn't pretend that we're gonna block 1 city with an SP - I just tried to estimate, how much it'd take to us to produce the needed amount of probes because after 2140 there's evergrowing chance of other faction efforts in SP building and by 2160 the chance to build HGP for us will be like 20% or less (100%/4 human facs = 25% - (AI SP possibility + if Morgan gets IA, we can't do the same with probes!))

So let's start ASAP maybe!

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 22-08-2004 12:31 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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So I take it we're going to start building probe teams for hurrying SPs (0-1-1s are optimal for this)? Any firm support for this? Smacksim seems in favor, binTravkin might be in favor (ASAP maybe?), and I'm in favor. No one else has even posted in this thread (though Illuminatus topped it ). For lack of contrary opinions, I have started to implement this in the turn.

Illuminatus is offline Illuminatus
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Jul 2003
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  Old Post 22-08-2004 15:44 Visit Illuminatus<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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We need to take in account that Morgan has IA so he is probably accumulating supply crawlers so it is likely he is going to get most of SPs. However, I am for support since in worst case we will end with lots of probes.

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 22-08-2004 21:59 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Morgan cannot get all the appealing early SPs if we go for one. He might get first pick, but if we get second pick of the HGP and WP, we're doing pretty well.

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 23-08-2004 23:24
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If we find Morgan with a MW+rover or MW+MW, we could very likely threaten him to take a bad SP, or destroy a base.

Speaking of which, we really need protocol for Diplomacy. If you haven't voiced on this issue, please do so. What are we willing to trade/steal. Treaty/Pact? etc...

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 25-08-2004 18:22
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EDIT: deleted!

Last edited by binTravkin on 31-08-2004 at 13:03

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 04:11
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Pact will give maps automatically, btw.

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 06:20 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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I believe that pacting with a human will not give map information, though you could reconstruct a lot from the F4 screen. Pacting with an AI automatically involves a map exchange every time you talk with them.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 13:02
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Disregard that post, I ran into greater analysis and discovered that the statements above are wrong, therefore I'll be deletin the post

For more serious analysis, please see Lordship of Diplomacy!

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 13:04
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Got spare money?

quote:
Pact will give maps automatically, btw.


WRONG!
It gives them auto only to AI..

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 21:53
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Who will whore them to anyone for 5 ecs....

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 01-09-2004 14:01
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Who will whore them to anyone for 5 ecs....


Well, maybe pact with AI was not so good idea, but by the time we get any AI pacted we'll be infiltrated by enemy probes/Governor/EG anyway!

Hive is not going to pact with us I suppose..

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 09:11
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Taking Stock: State of Gaia

I didn't know where to put this, so it goes here....

It's 2133 and we've come a long way. Actually, we should be amazed at how well our planning and luck have worked together. We are probably the only seafaring nation, and have been for some time. We actually snuck up on the Data Angels, rather than the other way around. How embarassing for them . We reached our (temporary) expansion limit without incident. We've fully explored our homeland....almost. We've found worms, but only when it seemed to suit our plans. We've captured them when it was nice to do so, and we've blasted the naughty ones when we seemed to need cash.

We've not been invaded, nor have we offended any other faction. We have good reason to think we understand their situations, even though we have yet to meet them.

In our planning, we've made the most of our strengths, and are working around our weaknesses. If there is one thing I think we might have done differently, that is running Planned economics so early. Yet, only time will tell, and it may yet be the best road. For one thing, it is helping us to feel confident that we will bag an early Secret Project. We are stifled in our outward growth, with sooo much territory to grab ahold of. There is still time. If we do gain the HGP, we will be a fearsome force indeed.

So, all in all, we are looking very good. Not having the laboratories of Zak, the Economic might of Morgan, the easy research of Roze, or the vast armies of the Spartans and Hive, we have still managed to carve a very nice spot for ourselves in the southern hemisphere. We have all of the above qualities and more. We may not be the best at any one task, and that is our strength. Not to mention a small and growing army of Natives.....

-S

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
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Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 06-09-2004 05:53
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Yang is astronomical in the power charts, otherwise I think we should consider invading him with a handful of worms. The trouble is, unless we can actually defeat him, we won't really be able to hold onto any bases we take. Still, sending a few worms to the north should at least garner some pod-popping, which with IA underway is a safe bet. We could learn Applied Physics, which would not be good, but we could still learn Biogen/SoPsych from pods, which would be excellent.

To this end, perhaps we should drop our worm, then a probe in the north, then risk moving the foil through the fungus block to move 2 more units to the north-northeast. Time will tell us whether that second option is worthwhile, or whether the land to the north is connected enough to forgo the use of a ferry.

Should we try to get a probe over to the data angels? My guess would be that if we had a probe there now, it could probe them, but that by the time we got a probe across the ocean they would have defended their bases fairly comprehensively.

Also, should we try to trade techs with the angels or not? Do we have anything they do not? I did not check this during my turn, but if so, it could be interesting. I don't think we have to fear the angels for quite some time. They are far away across a vast ocean.

Illuminatus is offline Illuminatus
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  Old Post 06-09-2004 13:51 Visit Illuminatus<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Angels have IA for some time. We must try to get it from them by trade before we research it.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:35
  Old Post 06-09-2004 14:20
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Tired of ads?

So, go for buying it!
We could even threaten them, if they refuse!

Illuminatus is offline Illuminatus
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I believe it is not smart threatning so soon.

Natalinasmpf is offline Natalinasmpf
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Sep 2003
time: 13:35
  Old Post 08-09-2004 20:06
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Well if we managed to procure more native life on that continent...perhaps we could, sooner or later.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
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  Old Post 08-09-2004 20:11
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Well, I think we must kill that FT and pop the pod above as they're not going to do it for some 20 more yrs I think (they're FM, so they'll need empath unit + they're allocating their assets to different things, not NL killing and pod popping)

Let's just say them that FT was on our way home and it'd take yrs to round it's ZOC and if we did so we couldn't catch the ferry!

smacksim is offline smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
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  Old Post 16-09-2004 02:55
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Back to long term planning....

We should consider planting a base on our East coast for shipping concerns/probe actions. It is possible that the Hive has developed doct:flex, or will soon do so, in which case we too can begin building ships. A few IODs would be great for exploration and carrying probe teams to their targets.

------------

If we do manage to get the HGP, we will be able to immediately build more bases. Some pre-planning should be going on about this right now. I suggest everyone download a current map and plot their favorite positions, when you have the time.

------------

We need to discuss how probing techs from Yang will slow down our own research. At a certain point we must concede that we are pretty far behind the other factions and need to probe our way to equity whilst building our research infrastructure. Has that time arrived?

-------------

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One additional thing - if we probe Yang, we can get tech for Command Nexus - if we lose race for other techs, we should build it, since it will solve our moral problems and we would negate it from other factions.

smacksim is offline smacksim
King
Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
  Old Post 20-09-2004 22:10
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Got spare money?

Come on Gaians. This is the best thread of all, and a chance to plan for more great adventures such as our SP building, which seems to be working out rather nicely.

Probes vs. Do-it-Yourself research

Flexibility vs. SocPsych to research next

Base sites and CP building

How to get around Yang and contact others....

 
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