19-08-2004 01:05									#1
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What advantages does a submarine have?

	19-08-2004 01:08									#2
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It is supposed to be invisible to normal units, like a probe team. However, the AI sees all, so subs are no better than ships against it. They still have a very limited applicability against human opponents (very limited because in unmodded games, subs come too late to matter) as submarine aircraft carriers, or nuke subs.

	19-08-2004 04:42									#3
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Mabe the AI just carried detectors in the game? Does deep radar detect them?

	19-08-2004 05:11									#4
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personally I feel subs and carriers come far too late in the game. they should be moved up to doctrine flexibility.

	19-08-2004 05:42									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident personally I feel subs and carriers come far too late in the game. they should be moved up to doctrine flexibility.

But they are high tech things. If everything comes in so early there are no point in looking forward to the late stages of the game.

	19-08-2004 06:20									#6
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I think the point is that they come so late when the outcome of the game is already determined, the only thing that remains is to go through the motions of conquest, transcendence, diplomacy, or energy cornering.
As I've played I've toyed with the tech tree a bit, but, with subs, since the AI knows where all your units are, they are a marginal unit, and in multiplayer, you need to have consensus on when to have units in the tech tree.
I generally move carriers and subs to MMI and move copters to nanometallurgy since they're so powerful.

	19-08-2004 06:21									#7
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Subs and carriers come so late the game is probably decided by the time you can build them, at least among seasoned players. The AI doesn't carry detectors everywhere, rather it has full knowledge of everything's position. Since the AI is incompetent, this boost doesn't mean too much. However, there are a few ways to get the AI to apply some of its omniscience to help out a human player, and this is usually banned in multiplayer games. Besides, we've had submarines for over 200 years, and the idea has been around even longer. They aren't that high-tech.

I would expect deep radar to find submarines, but don't know for sure. Try it out!

	19-08-2004 06:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by grobnok But they are high tech things. If everything comes in so early there are no point in looking forward to the late stages of the game.

hi tech? remember. This is after people from earth have successfully constructed a space ship and went from Earth to Alpha Centauri.

I feel not being able to build a simple boat at the start of the game is silly.

A carrier isn't really high tech. It's just a ship, but bigger. Yes it has steam catapults and arresting gears, but they aren't that difficult to manufacture and maintain (although the Russians still haven't figured it out I heard )

The technology behing a sub isn't real complicated- manufacturing is more tricky (because quality control must be much higher)

	19-08-2004 06:52									#9
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It would be nice to at least be able to build a 2 movement naval unit at the start of the game. Maybe a 4 movement with flexibility. and a 6 movement with initiative along with subs and carriers.

I meant to say doctrine: intiative above with regards to subs and carriers. That's the one that gives cruisers, right?

	19-08-2004 08:15									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident hi tech? remember. This is after people from earth have successfully constructed a space ship and went from Earth to Alpha Centauri. I feel not being able to build a simple boat at the start of the game is silly.

Yes, I always thought that the default of undirected research was silly, given that in AC the aliens automatically get directed research because they are "rediscovering" the technology. So are the humans, at least until after space flight.