19-08-2004 21:19									#1
	Civ 3 Integrity and Fun Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm somewhat new to this forum but I'm not at all new to Civ 1, 2 or 3. I would like to pose a question to veteran players. My practice when starting a new game is to save at 400 BC and then explore the area with my settler and worker. If I like the setting, I reload and play.

Also, once playing the game, whenever I am about to land on a "goodie" hut, I always save. If I then do not get a tech advance or some other favorable outcome, I reload, wait a few turns and try again.

My question: is it the experience of veteran players that such practices diminish the enjoyment of the game?

I normally play at the Monarch level and have great difficulty winning most of the time at that level. I want to increase my enjoyment of the game but do not want to have to play at the Regent level if I can avoid it.

	19-08-2004 21:37									#2
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to each their own.

It is discouraged here to reload before popping a hut. But we aren't going to crucify you over it.

I recently broke myself of that habit. barbs really aren't a serious threat in this game anyways (I worry more about mindworms coming from SMAC pods)

	19-08-2004 22:05									#3
	Re: Civ 3 Integrity and Fun Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by gaerdraug I'm somewhat new to this forum but I'm not at all new to Civ 1, 2 or 3. I would like to pose a question to veteran players. My practice when starting a new game is to save at 400 BC and then explore the area with my settler and worker. If I like the setting, I reload and play. Also, once playing the game, whenever I am about to land on a "goodie" hut, I always save. If I then do not get a tech advance or some other favorable outcome, I reload, wait a few turns and try again. My question: is it the experience of veteran players that such practices diminish the enjoyment of the game? I normally play at the Monarch level and have great difficulty winning most of the time at that level. I want to increase my enjoyment of the game but do not want to have to play at the Regent level if I can avoid it.

I used to do the same thing too. I don't do it anymore, because in my opinion it does reduce the enjoyment of the game. Some of the best games I ever played (at least the ones that stick in my mind the most) were games where I was at a disadvantage and came back to win the game.

If you want to explore other playing options I would suggest visiting the strategy forum and posting about how you usually play the game (with saves, screenshots, etc.). There are always people that would be happy to deconstruct your game and give help, pointers, etc. Another option is the Apolyton University Forum where many people play games and post about how they went about playing (called a During Action Report or DAR). Currently there are a whole bunch of 1 on 1 play-by-email games going on (all of them using the same starting map) so you can see how many different players would take the same start and run with it.

	19-08-2004 23:12									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident to each their own. It is discouraged here to reload before popping a hut. But we aren't going to crucify you over it. I recently broke myself of that habit. barbs really aren't a serious threat in this game anyways (I worry more about mindworms coming from SMAC pods)

Play as Gians or whatever they were that can capture the worms.

Anyway I don't know if it does anything to ones enjoyment or not, but I would image it will hurt you learning to play optimally.

Also huts are very dangerous at the highest levels. This is why you see players leave them alone on Deity and even Demi (for a time). At sid, you often will play without huts to slow down the tech pace.

	20-08-2004 01:34									#5
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I used to do this a lot as well. But I dont anymore. Now I just b1tch about the RNG a lot

Listen to Rhoth. I have learned a lot from hanging around in those forums and playing the AU games. I would highly recommend it.

	20-08-2004 04:00									#6
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I used to explore at 4000 BC as well... I'd always want to play with fantabulous starts. Broke the habit when I started hanging out here.

	24-08-2004 22:37									#7
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I'm with Rhoth and the others. The problem here is that if you get used to this form of play, and then want to get involved in PBEM multi-play, these sorts of things are strictly prohibited. You get one move - and one move only - and you are on your honour about it.

My advice is to play as is intended - if its arotten start - learn to overcome it - it will make you a better civ player - and as someone has already pointed out, do not discount the fun in playing from a less than optimal position. Makes victory that much sweeter.

I remember once back in '02; I was playing as India....

	24-08-2004 22:41									#8
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Listen to Rhoth.

Now if I could just get con to follow that advice when I tell him it wasn't me pirating his ships in the northern passage recently in our Age of Discovery PBEM.

	24-08-2004 23:10									#9
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Ditto the rest of these fine upstanding gentlemen.

I never had a problem with pre-exploring, because to me the most fun of the early game is finding out what your surroundings are like.

I used to save for goodie huts, but basically kicked myself and asked what fun that was. They're not tech scrolls lying there, so why should I expect a tech from every one? It's much more fun to a) decide whether or not it's worth popping, and b) finding a way to maximize what it gives me, good or bad (barbs? hmm, let's find a mountain and hope for promotion).

	24-08-2004 23:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Now if I could just get con to follow that advice when I tell him it wasn't me pirating his ships in the northern passage recently in our Age of Discovery PBEM.

We need to talk.

Hey - this could become the Grand Passage trash talking thread.

(no - would not want to hi-jack what is a good subject to discuss.)

	27-08-2004 08:33									#11
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anyone who gets mad at you for doing anything in the game is an idiot. you play the game exactly how you enjoy it most.

	27-08-2004 09:42									#12
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To each their own. Personally I'd just accept the consquences of popping a hut and move on. When I play SMAC/X, I'm a madosadist - I like to play with blind research on and with a lot of native lifeforms .

I even wish that Civ 3 had that option of blind research!

	27-08-2004 10:53									#13
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Well, this may sound like AA meeting of some sort or another, however with CIVII I was addicted to above mentioned behavior, but not for tech but cites or 'advanced barbarians' who wanted 'join' my empire because of my 'obvious wonderfulness'. Now that 'hit' was addictive!! Reloading easy in CIVII so my conscious need not 'count' the many reloads.

Now with CIVIII, it is techs for sure however it really screws up game balance. So I joined a 'support group' of wanton abusers and got over it... eventually... gee I was even called names, when I too freely admitted my 'weakness'. Now I am stalwart 'knight', that's right, every game is 'preserve random seed'!! What a guy huh. Not proud of my reformed character, well that's alright.

This leads to a similiar 'problem'. I do not at all like not seeing the terrain, that is the whole map straight off the whole time. Yaa, I know this a just another bloody weakness, well good news, I got clever! I keep the 'light on' as it were (all terrain visible), but so I do not take wanton advantage of 'seeing' all those goody huts just laid out there readied for my taking, guess what I did?

This will raise your eyebrows for sure, 'I made all goody huts invisible'!!! Yep, and I scramble them routinely, so I cannot memorize their location (I play on the same map every game, it just such a nice map, anyway).

Well, I feel better for getting 'this' off my chest goodness knows. So what do you think editors are for anyway? Game editor is where 'cheaters become game designers'!!

Thanks for letting me share.

	27-08-2004 12:05									#14
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In the very beginning, Civ I, I have reloaded games where babarians popped out and killed my exploring unit or even took out a city a few times. The last 10 years I must have been "clean".

The exploring part of the game is probably the best part. Where is my nearest enemy, who is it, does he have anything to trade and where are the goodie huts? For terrain I hate mountains, jungle and deserts, so I play the temperate, normal, oldest earth, if I have to choose myself. Usually I play for an hour at every start and if I feel there's some perspective at winning, I'll continue and get severely hooked for a few weeks.

At the moment I'm about to win my first emperor game. The game is done, I just have to choose how to win. 77% of the population, 55% of the area, will probably shoot for domination. I like the spaceship somehow. Probably because of the old Civ I days, where I tried to stay out of each war. Those 15 minute turns... pfff, and I'm not even micro managing anymore.

	27-08-2004 21:07									#15
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In my opionion, I think saving before the goodie huts is cheating and usually just face the consequences if a hoarde of barbarians jumps out and gobbles up my unit. I think it's just a little more fun that way.

As far as exploring the map goes, in most every game that I play I save at 4000BC, like you said, and do some exploring. If it's a very poor placement I will restart the game and do the same thing until I like it.

When I finally do like the placement, I will go as far as to take a screen shot of the explored map (zoomed out) and paste it into Powerpoint. I then go through and plan out where I will want all of my cities to be placed, marking them with graphics in the shape of the city radius so that I can see overlaps and the such. Then I load the game and send out my settlers to the positions where I want the cities. Keep in mind though that I don't know the locations of any strategic resources because I have not reseached any technologies. Also, when exploring, I usually won't go too far past the boundaries of any neighboring civs unless they are real close to me. (This just makes me feel a little better about knowing the map)

I find this approach very exciting. I love strategy and enjoy creating the most efficient city layouts. If you explore as you go, you will often have large overlaps in city radii when you reach oceans, mountain ranges, or player boundaries. Even though some may consider it cheating, I think that the AIs have many unfair advantages too and this is just one way for me to even it out.

	27-08-2004 21:24									#16
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so what is the most efficient city layout?

	27-08-2004 21:32									#17
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Now, now, Dissident, I may be a newbie but we know this calls for a completely new thread

	27-08-2004 21:41									#18
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All I'm saying is that I try to place all my cities in a way that there are few unused spaces between them and some of the cities (my capital being one) have almost all of the radius to itself.

	27-08-2004 21:46									#19
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quote: I think that the AIs have many unfair advantages

AI has a big disadvantage in being unable to THINK.

Only playing on the worldmap had me play with knowledge beforehand. Never even had it cross my mind to play on known maps. I can see the efficiency, but it spoils the exploring excitement in the game.

	27-08-2004 21:52									#20
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Well, I can understand that. Let me ask you this, though, because I would like to try it your way and see if it is more fun. How much effort/resources do you put into exploring at the start of the game? Do you build a whole bunch of units to go out and explore the area around you or do you just move your settlers blindly into the area around you until you find a resonably suitable place to build?

	27-08-2004 22:13									#21
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Making the map and then experiencing the map I so made is the fun for me. Both ways back and forth, for a well built map is so intriguing of use in gameplay. Made more than can be mastered in one game, you can do it again and yet again from different starting points. For instance is old Europe ever really boring? Studying maps is itself fun, no matter this game! I like the unknown factor or random factor a lot, so my goody huts are 'invisible' and scrambled.

Another point of getting over cheating was 'stealing' techs from other Civs, for without 'preserve random seed' you can reload until stealing pays off! For this admission I got handsomly derided.

It is interesting to see from what perspective each finds enjoyment when playing this game!

hi petermarkab, I sent you a PM, let me know if it worked.

Last edited by Antrine on 27-08-2004 at 23:26

	27-08-2004 22:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine Another point of getting over cheating was 'stealing' techs from other Civs

Yeah, I used to do that loads in SMAC; i'm probably a 10 pc. cheater nowadays, and i certainly feel satisfied when i overcome a bad start, an inconvenient invasion, or a friendly meeting with the natives!

Antrine, I'd like to try your map - would you mind posting it?

P

	28-08-2004 01:03									#23
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Since this thread title is very cogent for my purposes, let me ask this question:

Is it a cheat, fair or clever to do the following.

I am play a deity game when I finally took over my contient. I see Aztecs and Russians have good size chunks of land and America has been the leader the whole time, till now.


I soon move ahead in the score, but I know I really have not gotten a large enough fleet, nor troops to take on even the smallest civ.

I mustered up 14 galleons and fill them with Inf/Art/Calv and 1 Num Merc. My sole purpose is to land on a hill next to a Mayan city. Take the city and use the NM to trigger my GA and maybe get a leader or two and then gift the city to Japan.

Things go well and I take the city and a small counter attack occurs. It leaves a bunch of 1HP units next to the city. I use the NM and get a GA and a bunch of elite calvs actually gets my first MGL.

I crack an army, sell structures and then gift the city and get out with most of my troops before the big numbers get in their licks.

Now this is something I never have tried before and was not sure the troops would be send to the capitol, but they were.

The evil part is I intend to return with more armies and more ships ASAP and come back to take the Japanese city. The Mayan troops will just stand around and I can regroup. Build a barracks, temple and harbor, maybe a wall before going for the Mayans.

I hope to get even more units in before then to absorb the attack. I figure 4 or 5 inf armies (4 units each) should be able to handle the action with scores of inf and calv and arty to back them up. The Mayans only have 7 cities, so maybe 250 units? I have taken the city back now and there are two stacks of 50 or so on the hills next to it (Mayans).

So is this way out of line or marginal or just smart?

	28-08-2004 02:46									#24
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Extremely clever! I am impressed! I think reloading is a 'mechanical' cheat. What you are doing is simply clever, unless the AI's are so stupid to allow you to do it more than once.

For that is what you could accomplish 'once' against human opponents. Will the Japanese allow you to gift them yet again after you have turned on them?

I have never been so clever, only because if I run up against something, I just climb into the editor and try to adjust or fix it out that way. In order to have more formidable AI's, I have beefed their start units/armies way up instead of turn up to SID. So if I try to invade or be sneaky I just get hit hard. So I find now I treat the AI's more straight forward.

But gosh darn that is sure sneaky, I guess I am a little jealous of such thinking!

	28-08-2004 03:34									#25
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I don't know if they will go for it again, but I suspect that as long as you are at peace and it is just a straight gift, they will take it.

The whole idea was to be able to land all my troops so that the Mayans would not care. So gifting the city make those tiles free to land on without interference. Humans would have had units or workers on those tiles, so no one could land without marines or Beserkers.

If you land on Mayan or any other homeland you will not be able to fort before wave after wave its you.

Well if you have a couple of armies in the stack they will leave them alone.

In this one I finally attacked the Mayans from that city and they have countered with about 90-100 units (LB and calvs). I did not lose a single unit. They have stacks of 34/20/42 next to my city and 12/5/28/8/2 on the second ring.

It did get touch and go on losing three armies, before the AI finally put up infantry with full health. It loves to use the army on defense, even if it has only 2 HP left.

I only got two promotions out of the whole thing and I have the Epic up.

	28-08-2004 03:41									#26
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BTW I gave it to Japan as I figured they were not strong enough to move in and take down the Mayans before I did.

The Americans and Russians, would have been risky. Also Russia atacked me at this point. Crazy, they send 30 ships with 3 escorts to each galleon.

This is not enough to do any damage to the largest civ (me) with rails up and MA building armies every 5 turns. I had two empty armies just waiting to be filled.

I wanted to save them for tanks, but oh well.

I see the Americans have one city on Japans land, so that will be my next target. Grab tha city, make peace as Japan is the real target. Use that city to stage up lots of tanks (by then).

I just want to get a few of the smaller civs out of the game to slow down Russias research pace and speed up turns.

	28-08-2004 05:34									#27
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Hi vmxa1, we may be in jeopardy of highjacking 'gaerdraug's' thread here with these last few posts.

One tie in may be that, how many are having fun with CIV are also using mechanical work-a-rounds or cheats. ( what you are doing, I think is bad design apdaptation of dealing with CIVIII at Deity or SID, since it is a over-rated difficultiy based on shield production handicaps).

How much success of this game (I wonder) is based on players using 'cheats' in order to enjoy the game?

There is a question for the 'marketing gurus' and Zeus help our industry if they both new and utilized said statistics!

'QUOTE//In this one I finally attacked the Mayans from that city and they have countered with about 90-100 units (LB and calvs). I did not lose a single unit. They have stacks of 34/20/42 next to my city and 12/5/28/8/2 on the second ring.UNQUOTE//

This of course is game ridiculous and sounds like CIVII all over again. (my opinion of course, not personal to you or anybody).

If the AI had a better mix of units, could use artillery and had well fielded armies, I think you would have had much more satisfaction playing that scenario. As is, what was it except to defy the odds (production) at Deity or Sid. Without that caveat, I think you would sooner quit the game in disgust.

Having fun, I think, requires some sense of fairness, and then you win anyway! I am off-base here?

Anyway not hammer but maybe focus our conversation here a little more in line with the thread's creator.

	28-08-2004 10:27									#28
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Well I would try to not hijack, but he only post once and that was on the 19th, so I suspect it is not a problem.

BTW I thought I was playing Deity, but when I restarted my PC and loaaded up I noticed it said Sid. I guess I forgot to change the selection, no wonder it was a bit of a struggle.

I was not expecting as many troops as I am finding and now I know why. That is why I was beat to Philosophy.

But you are correct, it is the lack of armies that is hurting them. The mix of troops is due to lack of money or resources.

The AI does many tiny silly errors as well. I notice the Americans (at war with me) sent a galleon and it ended it turn next my shore. Not only can I now use atries to paste it, but they did not end in a tile that was producing anything.

A human would have seen the coastal tile was not in the cities radius. Stopping on a food tile can hurt cities at max pop.

Anyway why send an on escorted galleon into hostile waters?

	29-08-2004 01:38									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But we aren't going to crucify you over it.

Don't trust him.

	30-08-2004 06:52									#30
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 anyone who gets mad at you for doing anything in the game is an idiot. you play the game exactly how you enjoy it most.

No one was getting mad at him. And we are not idiots. He asked for advice, and advice, from the perspective of those giving it, was given. No judgement was intended, one way or the other.