23-08-2004 16:31									#271
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Most definitely. You giving me the green light, Ag?

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 16:34									#272
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quote: Why is this absurd? If fairness can, in fact, be dictated, then by your own definition, this is perfectly acceptable.

I said that it must be dictated, not that it can be dictated. No society can operate without rules. Even a democracy has rules about the way that the power to change the rules of the economy will be organized.

If everyone just individually "decided" what was fair, anarchy would result. That's why we have a democracy, so that the state can enforce the will of the people and remove such conflicts by enforcing a democratically approved rules. But it so happens that the democratic system itself embodies norms of fairness or justice (i.e. voting is the "right" way of solving these conflicts).

No matter what sort of government you imagine, it will have to dictate conceptions of fairness to individuals who don't want it. If said individuals act deviantly, they are called criminals and the full force of the state is brought upon them. This goes for Libertarians, democrats, communists, monarchists, etc.

Whining that the government makes you obey rules of fairness is silly. That's the point of a government. In a democracy, if you don't like the government, you can change it. But if you go so far as to change it to a fascist state, you have violated democratic rules of fairness and replaced them with fascist rules.

I don't think it could be any clearer.

	23-08-2004 16:35									#273
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Agathon:
Please do not open the can of worms that is history.

Just like we Commies have made terrible mistakes in our history, which we don't want to repeat (I don't think I need to list them here), the Capitalists can also disagree with the dark side of their past.

In modern capitalist democracies, Communist factions are generally hindered by other ways than violence. If you use the 19th century violence as an argument against capitalism, you justify Vel et al. to use Stalin as an argument against Communism.

	23-08-2004 16:37									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Most definitely. You giving me the green light, Ag? -=Vel=-

You can say what you like, but it won't make a difference since the Poly Commies do not agree with some of the things that past peoples' calling themselves "communists" have done. No more than some people who call themselves "capitalists" would necessarily agree with the activities of the "capitalists" in that picture.

Spiff made this point to you two pages ago and you still don't get it. That's why none of us take you seriously.

	23-08-2004 16:42									#275
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BTW, to explain my motivation with my my previous post (avoiding the use of the historic can of worms):

Historical arguments is not something I fear, since none of them disproves my own utopia. They discredit a societal choice that I myself am opposing (totalitarianism).

I just don't want this thread to be full of useless noise, akin to "-You Stalinist! -You Starver of the people!"

	23-08-2004 16:42									#276
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I believe you are quite mistaken there. I believe you do take me seriously. (Well, maybe not you specifically, but Monk, Spiff, and others--they'll be quick to tell me if I am wrong on this, so we'll see).

IMO, that was why they commented as they did, and why I am making more of an effort to constrain my emotionality on the topic at hand. And by the way....take the advice of your Comrade....don't give me the green light.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 16:58									#277
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quote: I believe you are quite mistaken there. I believe you do take me seriously

Then why did you fall for such an obvious ploy, given what Spiffor has been saying?

	23-08-2004 17:00									#278
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And what "obvious ploy" do you believe I have fallen for?

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 17:03									#279
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You seemed ready to offer historical examples as a means of refutation, despite my own rejection of that strategy in previous posts.

Did you not think it odd that I was doing the very thing that I said was irrelevant? Apparently not, you just wanted to dive right in, which seems to show you haven't been listening to anything that any of us have been saying.

	23-08-2004 17:04									#280
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Then by your own words, you are proved mistaken, as I did not "dive right in" but rather, asked if you were certain YOU wanted to "go there" before *I* proceeded.

So perhaps not such the imbecil you paint me as after all?



-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 17:06									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I just don't want this thread to be full of useless noise, akin to "-You Stalinist! -You Starver of the people!"

But on some level that is true, since we are so overwhelmingly right, and they are so overwhelmingly ignorant and evil.

	23-08-2004 17:07									#282
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quote: Then by your own words, you are proved mistaken, as I did not "dive right in" but rather, asked if you were certain YOU wanted to "go there" before *I* proceeded.

Hardly, someone on the ball would have remembered previous comments.

	23-08-2004 17:09									#283
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I did remember, Ag. Which was the purpose behind the question. And the reminder to YOU...in case you had forgotten...

-=Vel=-

(wow...THIS exchange is constructive, isn't it? )

	23-08-2004 17:10									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But on some level that is true, since we are so overwhelmingly right, and they are so overwhelmingly ignorant and evil.

	23-08-2004 17:11									#285
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Sure you did, since you ignored the point for the three previous pages.

But you still haven't acknowledged that your comments on fairness are in smoking ruins.

	23-08-2004 17:13									#286
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That is because they're not in smoking ruins at all.

Fairness cannot be dictated any more than justice can be dictated.

By definition, he who dictates the fairness, being a fellow human being, will take pains to ensure that the "fairness" doled out is "more fair" to him than to you.

Thus, given the definition OF fairness, it destroys itself.

Again, tell it to King Solomon.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 17:19									#287
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To Kidicious - please tell me the purpose of a state under your system .

	23-08-2004 17:27									#288
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Vel:

If I understand Agathon's argument well, he means that "fairness", just like "justice" are highly subjective notions, which vary from individual to individual.

Now, we know that all modern countries have a standardized norm, which is enforced through force (you, Vel, as an American, can't kill somebody or you'll be throw to prison - even if you saw that killing as the right thing to do).
If we are to make a moral principle such as "fairness" or "justice" into a norm enforced by the State, it has to be standardized, just like any other norm.
Hence the legal definition of "fairness" or "justice" has to be precise, has to be unique, and has to be enforced through force for those who will act against the norm.

If it's not standardized, any small-scale deicider and their dog will have a different definition of these principles, and it will be the rule of the arbitrary.

	23-08-2004 17:30									#289
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Spiffor, I absolutely agree with that, however....

That is not the same thing at all as "dictating" fairness and justice.

Not even close.

Not even in the same city...much less the same ballpark.

No...I'll grant you that there was never a referendum about what "fairness" and "justice" mean, but then, there didn't have to be.

That's what the social contract is all about.

Further, any attempt at "dictating" either of those things overrides the social contract in preference to....well, the dictator's preference.

Very different animal.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 17:31									#290
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Thanks, Spiff, you saved me a post.

Now head over to my "Evil Right Wingers..." thread and express your outrage.

	23-08-2004 17:34									#291
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quote: That's what the social contract is all about. Further, any attempt at "dictating" either of those things overrides the social contract in preference to....well, the dictator's preference.

Have you just smoked crack? Have you ever read Leviathan? The whole point of Hobbes' political program is to set up an absolute power to enforce the contract.

Jesus.... are you trolling?

	23-08-2004 17:35									#292
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Agathon

You are funny-- vel didn't bite-- in fcat specifically asked several times if you REALLY wanted to "go there" and then didn't "go there" himself. It serves no purpose to list the past atrocities on either side.

To have any kind of discussion, it only makes sense to discuss people's proposed or existing systems and argue about that.


Oh and "fairness" can never be dictated, Rules and regulations can. If they are "fair' the vast majority will accept their legitimacy. Fairness itself remains a subjective concept.

	23-08-2004 17:40									#293
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Yes. I have just smoked crack. I'm smoking some right now. Would you like some?



If you wish to believe that fairness and justice can be dictated, then this is precisely where the debate stalls out.

I don't buy into it.

Don't want any part of your vision of Utopia if that's at the core, because we're not even speaking the same language.

A revolutionary movement rising to power and deciding by fiat that "this is fair, and this is not fair" does not "fairness" make.

If you can't see that, then try removing the blinders of your own ideology for a moment or three.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 17:41									#294
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[quote]If they are "fair' the vast majority will accept their legitimacy. Fairness itself remains a subjective concept.[quote]

No one really believes that. Everyone thinks that their version of fairness is the right one. And there are norms of debate when it comes to ethical notions like justice - it's amenable to rational debate.

It doesn't matter if vast numbers of people accept the way a society is run, it would still be possible to have two such societies with different norms of justice. It is still an open question as to whether either is just, if we take "just" in the sense it is used by normal people.

If you don't accept that, then you lapse into relativism and you have no reason to complain if you didn't like it.

	23-08-2004 17:45									#295
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Summary: Vel et al: You guys want to kill kids and throw rocks at bunnies, and eat live bunnies. Kid et al: No we don't. Great ****ing thread.

More like,

Kid: I like Rage Against the Machine because I relate emotionally to their lyrics, but I'm too stupid to do a simple thought experiment, or even follow someone else's.

Vel et al: Your ideas can be shot full of holes by a group of kindergarteners subtext: you're a moron

Other Commies: You guys are beating a straw man to death!

Vel et al: No believe it or not it's a real man. Maybe the Wizard will give him a brain.

	23-08-2004 17:46									#296
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quote: A revolutionary movement rising to power and deciding by fiat that "this is fair, and this is not fair" does not "fairness" make.

Nor does a democratically elected government rising to power and deciding X or Y necessarily make it fair (that's an open question). That was the point of my original post.

But whatever standard is adopted, be it the right or wrong one, it will have to be dictated since the alternative is anarchy.

Besides, a revolutionary junta could just so happen to have the correct conception of justice.

	23-08-2004 17:52									#297
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Sikander!

Ag - are you quite sure that was your original point? Cos in reading your post, it sure don't appear that way. I mean, maybe I'm just too much of the imbecil you painted me as earlier, but I CAN read.

And no...if a democratically elected group decides something is fair, that doesn't make it fair by default, however, and here's the interesting thing:

There's mechanisms in place in democratic society such that, if a thing is decided upon, it must undergo a long review, and can be changed later through democratic processes.

This is not the case with your dictatorial approach to fairness.

If the head honcho says it's fair...then that's just the end of the story.

Maybe he'll change his mind later, and maybe he won't.

Note the difference?

Would you say that it is a relatively important one, or not really?

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 18:08									#298
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There's no difference, since the democratic standards that inform the process and speak to its legitimacy are themselves applied in an absolutist fashion.

Every form of government enforces its standard of fairness. It doesn't matter whether it is the right one or not.

A democracy says, "what's fair is what is enacted by majority vote". Once the vote is taken, that conception of fairness is enforced by the state.

You can argue about whether one standard is fairer than the other, but that doesn't change the fact that every standard will be enforced absolutely.

edit: grammar.

	23-08-2004 18:14									#299
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quote: If the head honcho says it's fair...then that's just the end of the story.

No, because that doesn't mean it is really fair.

"If the democratically elected government says its fair... then that's just the end of the story" makes the same mistake.

But complaining that it is unfair because it is enforced is an invalid argument because it is possible that real fairness may be enforced. Moreover, every conception of fairness must be enforced, or what's the point.

	23-08-2004 18:17									#300
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Vel:

Why do you assume Agathon's system will be ruled by a "head honcho" without checks and balances? Why couldn't the decision process be one that is subject to many different people, akin to what it is now?

In today's world, we have political institutions that dictate norms, after a long process within. Some of those norms (the ones for the judicial system) are called "justice". You may find them unjust from time to time, yet they are called "justice" nonetheless.

Should a system use the word "fairness" as a guiding principle for its policies, you bet the word "fairness" will have to be well defined by the political system (which will dictate it) for it to be politically useable. People may keep their own opinion of what actual fairness is (or "morality", or any word filled with judgemental value), but the officially used definition of "fairness" will be one imposed by the political system. The advantage of democracy is that we can change the political system if we're unhappy about it.