23-08-2004 21:28									#361
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Ag - Nope. And you know I'm not. You're a bright boy.

Stop dodging and tell me why I'll like it so much better living under your kinder, gentler tyrant than where I am right now....

I've already outlined my position to you.

If you wish to play semantics games you can play....with yourself?

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 21:28									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I've just demonstrated to you that it is unfair, because the most heroic will go and die, while the selfish will live. Free choice or not, you call this fair.

Yes I call it fair. Nobody makes anyone do anything in this scenario. Lets say the war was in say Iraq-- some people believe in the cause and go fight. thers do not believe in it and do not

	23-08-2004 21:28									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon So you are now saying that any law enacted by a tyrant is necessarily unjust?

Wait, I've heard this before . . . Socrates!

	23-08-2004 21:29									#364
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quote: Ag - Nope. And you know I'm not. You're a bright boy.

Really, then what is wrong with a just law enacted by a tyrant?

	23-08-2004 21:30									#365
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@Vel: It seems to me that you oppose non-democratic regimes because they are "simply wrong", not because they are inherently unjust.

Now, it's, according to you, wrong if a single dictator imposes his vision of fairness on a million others, but, if I'm reading you a-right, not wrong if a million imposes their vision on a single individual. Where, between one and a million, is the point where such imposition shifts from wrong to not wrong?

	23-08-2004 21:31									#366
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He's your tyrant....use some of that brain power to figure it out, based on my (already stated ad nauseum) position.

Failing that, answer the question.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 21:32									#367
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Why are you arguing about dictators?

Why am I meddling in this thread?

	23-08-2004 21:33									#368
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quote: He's your tyrant....use some of that brain power to figure it out, based on my (already stated ad nauseum) position.

I didn't say he was my tyrant. I didn't even say he was a good man, I just said that it was possible for a tyrant to enact just laws.

Answer the question of whether it is possible for a tyrant to enact just laws. Yes or no?

	23-08-2004 21:35									#369
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why are you arguing about dictators?

Personally, to try and understand Vel's views on fairness and justice.

quote: Why am I meddling in this thread?

You're hella stupid?

	23-08-2004 21:35									#370
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LC - I'm not arguing the inherent justice or injustice of either system.

The discussion began with a debate on whether or not "fairness" and "justice" could be dictated to a societal group.

Ag has no problems with it.

I do.

For me...it does not matter how well intentioned the tyrant is...what matters is the degree of control his subjects have over said tyrant's will imposed over them.

If their only recourse is to kill him to effect change, then I would contend that there's a problem with the system.

This problem, however, does not manifest itself in democratic societies, because there are many avenues open to members of the society to effect change.

One need not march into Congress and start shooting, which seems to be pretty okay in Ag's world.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 21:36									#371
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Agathorn - are you admitting that communism is akin to tyranny , judging by your defence of a tyrant's laws' justness or unjustness ?

	23-08-2004 21:44									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You're hella stupid?

That must be it.

	23-08-2004 21:47									#373
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So you've said:

quote: Yes...it is possible for a Tyrant to make a just law. It is also possible for a democratic society to make an unjust law.

Since you admit these, you admit that the fact that it is freely chosen does not make a law just or unjust, nor does the fact that it is imposed by a tyrant.

But then you say:

quote: That one is imposed upon them and one was freely chosen makes all the difference in the world.

But, you've just said in the first two quotes that whoever enacts it makes no difference to the justice of the law. So if there is a difference, it can't be a difference in the justice of the law.

You might want to say that a tyrant imposing a just law on a city is unjust. Indeed, you do say this:

quote: The ACT of the imposition itself is immoral. Even if it is for their own "good." You see...we are not children. We are adults. We have free will.

But then it is hard to see why a tyrant imposing a just law is an immoral act. What matters with respect to laws is that they are just, not that they were enacted justly. The method of enaction adds nothing to the justice of the law, and all the beneficial effects flow from the justice of the law, not the intention of the tyrant.

If you want to say that only democratic enactions are just, then do you care more about the enaction or the law itself? If you care more about the enaction, then you must think it is sometimes better to have an unjust law than a just one, because you prefer just enactions to unjust ones. But that is around the wrong way, we value laws for their consequences, not for their origins.

	23-08-2004 21:48									#374
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quote: Agathorn - are you admitting that communism is akin to tyranny , judging by your defence of a tyrant's laws' justness or unjustness

No.

	23-08-2004 21:53									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx LC - I'm not arguing the inherent justice or injustice of either system. The discussion began with a debate on whether or not "fairness" and "justice" could be dictated to a societal group. Ag has no problems with it. I do.

Really? Had I just jumped into the thread at this point, I'd read the above as saying that a democratically elected government enforcing democratically enacted laws is not OK with you.

Assuming that's not what you mean, it seems the only conclusion is that you are using "dictate" and/or "societal group" in meanings different from what I'd expect.

To concretize; how can you justify punishing thieves if dictating to them that theft is something you've got a problem with?

quote: For me...it does not matter how well intentioned the tyrant is...what matters is the degree of control his subjects have over said tyrant's will imposed over them.

This again reads as opposition to autocracy in principle. I really cannot see any other reason to object to an enlightened despot - if there is, please tell me.

quote: This problem, however, does not manifest itself in democratic societies, because there are many avenues open to members of the society to effect change.

You're assuming that change is necessary. Since you've already conceded that the tyrant can make just laws, you appear to be saying that an otherwise just system needs to be brought down just because it's autocratic. That position makes no sense unless you're opposed to autocracy on principle.

	23-08-2004 21:54									#376
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LC :d:

	23-08-2004 21:57									#377
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The difference in a tyrant imposed law and a dermocratically imposed one is the ability to change it.

In a democracy I can rail against a law and effect change if I can get enough people to agree. If the tyrant listens to his people and efects change in the same manner then he's not really a tyrant now is he?

I would say that truly unjust laws are less likely in a democracy .

	23-08-2004 21:59									#378
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quote: The difference in a tyrant imposed law and a dermocratically imposed one is the ability to change it.

No. You can revolt against the tyrant to change it. That's an ability to change it.

Secondly, the ability to change a law seems to have no bearing on whether or not that law is just. At least Vel can't seem to come up with a good reason why it does.

	23-08-2004 22:05									#379
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Vel? .... Vel?

	23-08-2004 22:06									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. You can revolt against the tyrant to change it. That's an ability to change it. Secondly, the ability to change a law seems to have no bearing on whether or not that law is just. At least Vel can't seem to come up with a good reason why it does.

I don't think the ability to overthrow a system should be a justification for that system

and no, my ability to change the unjust law does not make it just. But the system itself permits if not encourages the fix to the problem. With the tyrant you have to overthrow the entire system to effect change.

	23-08-2004 22:07									#381
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Is just/moral defined as the almost universal belief in a held precept? If so the likelihood of that precept being correctly codified is vastly improved when the participating decision makers are as large a sampling of the population as possible. Is it possible that an individual can do so, perhaps. Is the likelihood as great, IMO no.

Realize this is a contrarian arguement that Aggie is making as he has more than often times railed at the imposition of US just/moral stances against the world claiming their tyrannical/dictatorial approach.

	23-08-2004 22:08									#382
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quote: I would say that truly unjust laws are less likely in a democracy .

That's a pragmatic argument for democracy, but not really relevant for the matters of principle we would appear to be discussing here.

	23-08-2004 22:08									#383
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quote: I would say that truly unjust laws are less likely in a democracy.

I would agree, but that has no bearing on the justice of the laws themselves.

So when Vel has spent large parts of the thread arguing that communism is unjust because it is enacted by a revolutionary junta, he has said nothing about whether or not communism is just. In fact whether or not it is established by a revolutionary junta, or a democracy or something else makes no difference and simply doesn't matter.

	23-08-2004 22:09									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Secondly, the ability to change a law seems to have no bearing on whether or not that law is just. At least Vel can't seem to come up with a good reason why it does.

Wasn't it you who claimed morality as a subjective. That implies that subjectivity is changing with time. Therefor the ability to modify the law is indeed part of the discussion.

	23-08-2004 22:09									#385
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quote: he has more than often times railed at the imposition of US just/moral stances against the world claiming their tyrannical/dictatorial approach.

That's true, but I have in mind the consequences. And have been proved right so far.

	23-08-2004 22:09									#386
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quote: Wasn't it you who claimed morality as a subjective.

No. That was Flubber.

	23-08-2004 22:10									#387
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To step back

I reject tyranny as an acceptable system . Partly thats because I think its only "fair" that the people have a say in their governance.

I accept democracy, with its flaws, as the only "fair" and acceptable system to me. Most people in Canada would accept democracy as "fair".


Ag does that make it "fair"-- as an absolute moral truth?

	23-08-2004 22:11									#388
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quote: I reject tyranny as an acceptable system . Partly thats because I think its only "fair" that the people have a say in their governance.

Why? What if they enact unjust laws? Surely a tyrant who enacted just laws would be better, since justice is better than injustice.

	23-08-2004 22:17									#389
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Ag answer my question first.

If 99% of people see Democracy as a just and fair system, does this become an objective truth?

	23-08-2004 22:18									#390
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Vel was eating lunch with his benevolently tyrannical boss...thus the delay...

We're essentially speaking of two different, but closely related things here.

One is the creation of laws, be they just or unjust.

On this, I think we can agree. Justice is better than injustice.

The other matter is control.

With a tyrant (benevolent or not), control is limited to taking his head off to change the system.

With a democratic process....many avenues of change and control are open.

This is no less important than the quality of laws coming out of the system, and I would rather live under a democracy that makes its share of mistakes than a tyrant whose laws prove just more often than not.

-=Vel=-