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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:35
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Some quotes of the original Marxist (thought not he original communist):
"In a higher phase of communist society... only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be fully left behind and society inscribe on its banners: from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.."
"Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness."
"Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included."
"Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs."
"Nothing can have value without being an object of utility."
"Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."
"In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality."
"Philosophy stands in the same relation to the study of the actual world as masturbation to sexual love."
"The bureaucracy is a circle from which one cannot escape. Its hierarchy is a hierarchy of knowledge. The top entrusts the understanding of detail to the lower levels, whilst the lower levels credit the top with understanding of the general, and so all are mutually deceived."
"The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force."
"The more the division of labor and the application of machinery extend, the more does competition extend among the workers, the more do their wages shrink together."
"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them."
"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people."
"The rich will do anything for the poor but get off their backs."
"We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour. Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass."
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Kid....go back and read your own friggin words, for God's sake.
You have radically altered what your stated beliefs are during the course of this debate. I swear man, all that waffling would make you an OUTSTANDING politician....have you given that much thought as a career path?
I'm not telling you what you believe, I'm simply pointing out all the times that you've fundamentally altered your position during the span of the last two days, and drawing the conclusion that the REASON behind all the waffling is cos you just plain don't know what you think.
And that's okay.
I'm not faulting you for that.
But when you attempt to make a rock solid argument out of a shifting plane of sand, it doesn't work.
A perfect example would be this:
You tell Flubber that it's not fair if he "gets ahead" (meaning that you're very concerned about maintaining a classless society where everybody starts, and remains equal...because that's one of your stated beliefs...equality is of utmost importance to you).
But when confronted with a scenario USING YOUR OWN SYSTEM where class differences begin to form, rather than fix the system you designed, you simply change the argument. Now, it's no longer a concern that Flubber's "getting ahead," cos hey....equal work for equal pay man, and you're done.
But the two positions contradict each other.
Get it?
-=Vel=-
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Tuberski
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ACK!!! PTHBBPPPTTT!!!!
Feb 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Nope Kid...I sure don't. Do you?
And that IS an important question, because EVEN WITH absolute equality of income, you will not be able to avoid a society of "haves" and "have nots" without periodic redistribution/confiscation of accumulated material wealth.
And what happens when Flubber's family really starts to outshine his neighbors, pulling ahead of them in every measurable way? Better cars, more money, nicer home...EXPANSION to the home....
When the neighborhood gets into an uproar about the uppity, high-brow family down the lane there....what are the party bosses gonna do?
Don't think it won't happen, either, cos we've demonstrated how it can and will.
So what's the response?
Or would you like to try another artful dodge?
-=Vel=- |
They will be mind-stapled, in fact all will be mind-stapled, since that's the only way that there will be a level playing field.
Human is a selfish animal, they don't work for the community and never will.
The only way that could happen is if God came down and took this selfishness away. Which according to religeous teachings I received will happen.
Basically, communism will only work with a higher power in authority, God, if you will.
Most Communists are atheists from what I've seen.
So the only thing that can make there beliefs come true, is something they don't believe in.
Yep, Communism makes sense.
 ACK!
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Elitism does not require a capitalist system.
Besides that, by your own logic, it is EVERY BIT as unfair for someone to gain an advantage because of superior money management skills as it is to gain an advantage cos daddy had money.
Further, even with the system you propose, there WILL BE families who have money. Even if you reset everybody to the exact same level on day one of your glorious revolution, over the course of time, the cream will rise to the top.
When that happens, you'll have your Elitism back.
The only way to prevent it is to periodically round up all personal property and re-distribute it so nobody gains that elite status.
Keep in mind that a lot of the wealthy families in this country built their wealth up in the span of less than a hundred years (and sometimes, dramatically less). There's a relatively small portion of truly "old money" in this country (which makes sense, given that we've only had a two hundred odd year history, as compared with some nations with a thousand or more years under their belts), so this is not going to be a problem that won't manifest itself for centuries to come, even if we reset everything tomorrow. You'll start having to deal with it in twenty years, tops. And perhaps even less time than that.
First thing then, is to decide exactly what it is you're arguing for. What do you truly want to change? Until you make up your mind on that, the debate can't really move forward, because every time you change your mind, we have to go back to the beginning and start all over (and as a side note: if you are tiring of the repititious nature OF this debate, there's your reason FOR all the repititon).
Further, under your system "taking care of things and making good purchases" is the first step toward getting ahead. You may have limited my options to do so, but when I start leveraging what options I have, you can bet your arse you'll notice the difference.
When that happens, I'll suddenly become one of those "Elitists" you go on about all the time, and therefore, a very dangerous man in your society.
But of course admitting to that, and then telling me how you'll deal with me would mean demonstrating a decidedly un-democratic (and perhaps a bit uncomfortable) side of your Utopia that you'd rather not draw attention to.
So....let's just do what we can to divert attention from that point by changing the subject, right?
I can read you, Kid.
You're not fooling me.
Just so you know.
-=Vel=-
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22-08-2004 00:17
That's right....whatever you do, don't address the issues.
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