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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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Kid
I don't know anything at all about you, true, and your personal travails are irrelevant really as I only attack your arguments. But I confess to being quite confused as to what your arguments exactly are anymore but I can say this
1.The current system is more productive than anything you propose-- I didn't mention my personal experience for sympathy-- I mentioned it to show that if you don't reward working harder and longer, extra training, more educuation or innovation, then on average you will get less of these things-- Business psych, the corporate experience and the experiences of nation states back this up.
2. Your system is less free than the current one. A person in canada is constrained only by their own abilities. There is nothing that prevents any one of us from garnering wealth. I can work as much as little as I want as long as I meet my own basic needs and I can choose which area I want to work in with reasonably good knowldge of the pay
Your system
a) you will mandate how much money I make
b) you will mandate how much I can work-- I can't work more or less
c) you may even make me take a turn at a less desirable job
tell me again WHY you want to do all this ??
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Ag, I'm debating what is before me, and to my knowledge, that's pretty standard form as debates go.
Kid calls himself a Communist. None of you other communists have taken any particular steps to distance yourself from him, or to refute his claim.
Kid is setting the parameters of the current debate by outling his system, and we are asking to take a closer look under the hood OF that system. When we try to nail down the particulars of what makes the system tick, it changes to suit the moment. We are not destroying any chance for meaningful discussion. We are simply trying to understand exactly WHAT you mean to implement. Now...in the future...whenever. That is irrelevant to the discussion, ultimately. I'm not asking when, I am asking WHAT. To date, I haven't gotten a clear answer.
If you'd like to change the parameters of the debate, it is as simple as putting some other proposed system on the table.
That you have not done so tells me that you have either nothing to propose, or no interest in debating the merits of "your brand" of the Big Red Machine. That's not too much of a leap, is it?
As to previous renditions of the grand experiment, I'm afraid that comes with the territory, because I assure you I am not alone in wanting to know why we should be subjected to a global version of the same basic doctrine that has failed so spectacularly on the world stage, and I'm afraid it falls to you modern day practitoners to answer those questions, since your founding fathers had an odd habit of killing each other off in droves.
What we'd like are some explanations about what you plan to do differently, and what mechanisms will be in place to prevent history from repeating itself.
Is that too much to ask, or will you answer me in Kid fashion and tell me to let the enlightened Party Bosses worry about it....don't think, don't question, just accept their wisdom as it comes?
If you don't HAVE those answers, then you're absolutely right. The revolution is a long ways off, because it seems to me that *somebody* had better have half a clue before implementation begins, ya know?
Hand in hand with that, if you don't have THOSE answers, what DO you know? What can you tell me about the system and its implementation?
If you can't tell me much about that either, then there's really not a lot to discuss, and not much in the way of "meaningful discussion" to wreck, true?
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
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Thanks Tubes....and yes. Several Cap/Com debates ago, I readily admit that I attempted to debate Kid (and you, and others) solely from the historic perspective which PROVIDES those preconcieved notions.
This entire thread, and the one that it sprang from, however, has been a new approach. Rather than harping on your past failures, I accepted his model as presented, and argued strictly from within it.
The first time anybody mentioned Stalin, it was you....followed shortly by Kid.
If you disbelieve that, the link the the original thread is in the first post of this one. I invite you to go check for yourself.
I'll be here when you get back...waiting on you, or Kid, or somebody who can tell me in something other than the vaguest-possible-terms, what you want, and how you plan to achieve your goals.
'k?
-=Vel=-
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I don't know why Aggie and Kid bother with you guys, since y'all constantly make crap up about what we believe, what we mean, etc. Seems an excercize in futility if you ask me, which is why I avoid these threads. |
Che
I make up nothing-- Ijust jumped in here and responded to the Kid philosophy-- Call it Kidism if you want . .. I have no idea what YOU believe and don't care, unless you want to present some ideas for discussion. Right now I am debating and am appalled by the things kid seems to believe
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:35
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chegitz - quote:
I don't know why Aggie and Kid bother with you guys, since y'all constantly make crap up about what we believe, what we mean, etc. Seems an excercize in futility if you ask me, which is why I avoid these threads. |
I've been reading their debate and I don't see crap constantly made up about what Kid says. I do see attempts to flesh out Kid's position and that has been aggravated by Kid's lack of clarity and mis-use of words.
Kid - quote:
Agreeing has nothing to do with it. It's all about who has the power to decide how much the wage will be. |
But you want that power under your ideology. My employer's power to make that decision is limited by my power to negotiate or reject his offer, I can't reject your "offer" because it isn't an offer, it's an order. If you were right, everyone would be making minimum wage...
quote:
I did some work for my neighbor last week. He paid me $8/hour. I knew that the work was worth more, but the guy turns 100 in October. I could have asked for more money, but I didn't really do it for the money. |
Ah, so you were willingly exploited (an oxy-moron of course)?
quote:
However, if I go down to Walmart looking for a job I can't ask for more than minimum wage, because they don't have time for that. |
Depends on your skills. The only job I ever had where I started out at the minimum wage was when I took a job as a mechanic's apprentice when I was going to school and I wanted the job because the owner of the trucking outfit was teaching me how to work on big rigs -training I considered valuable. Hell, I could have been paying him for that. 
quote:
They have hundreds of applicants to choose from. I have no power to negotiate for my wage. They have all the power. That's exploitation. |
No, it's called competition. You cannot be willingly exploited - it's a contradiction in terms. The fact someone will work for less than you doesn't mean you are being exploited any more than you are exploiting Ford because GM will sell you a car for less.
quote:
If I have to have a job, then I have to take their minimum wage and act like I like it. My boss can be an *******, I have to say "yes sir, it won't happen again." I might as well be forced into it. It makes no difference to me. Either way I want to be paid more, because that's what I really need. Some respect would be nice too. |
So that's your justification for forcing me to work for you and your ideology? You've just ~equated yourself with Walmart and you think Walmart exploits people... Btw Kid, once again you didn't answer my question:
Is it justice or slavery for you to force me to labor for you and your ideology?
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You think you're too good for the less desirable job? Get real, everyone does.
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Thats the second time you have mentioned someone being "too good"-- I believe the other time you said I thought other people are " inferior".
Thats crap.
People are people and my argument is that some people should NOT have the right to be superior by telling me what I must and must not do at the level of intereference we are talking.
I will argue for my right to earn and retain an unequal amount of stuff than another person. If you think that the person that has more "stuff" is somehow superior, that's your problem. See thats the problem, I do NOT equate "stuff" with a person's worth as an individual.
But you see, you denied me and my wife's right to work less and thereby earn less. Some people in a free society choose to work less because guess what? . . . they don't want extra stuff enough to do the extra. Others want to work more, and gain more stuff. Both are valid choices .. . . . In fact my wife makes those choices every week when offered overtime-- One time she works for the extra money while another she decides to forgo the extra income.
Its called free choice and neither decision makes her a better person than the other. The only thing earning more does is give you the opportunity to have more "stuff". Nothing more.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:35
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Summary:
Vel et al: You guys want to kill kids and throw rocks at bunnies, and eat live bunnies.
Kid et al: No we don't.
Great ****ing thread.
Last edited by monkspider on 22-08-2004 at 12:10
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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Overall kid, you seem to be arguing in favor of equality of condition. You want everyone to have the SAME earnings and stuff. It sounds egalitarian as everyone shares the benefits of the society and everyone contributes "equally".
Sounds nice, just it doesn't work since everybody thinks they aren't getting their fair share and most people would think they are contributing more than their share and in the end you need some central planners to value everyones contribution and benefits ( such planners will naturally overvalue their own contribution and immediately comprise an elite)
You see, I don't care about equality of condition. I don't want. There are people out there with far more money and "stuff" than I ever want or need. They are welcome to it. the fact that they have it doesn't hurt me even a little bit. Likewise I want more money and "stuff' than some other people happen to have. Different people have different wants and desires. Why should that guy across the street get a 1200 square foot house when he only thinks that would be more of a pain to clean and upkeep??
What I think we should strive for is equality of OPPORTUNITY .. . thats the freedom of everyone to choose and decide for themselves what they want to do and be. Now starting condition matters, ( and I am probably to the left of Vel on this point) so I have no real objection to the fact that my taxes on what I earn are a bit higher to create a social safety net such that everyone starts from an acceptable level. I believe in a strong social safety net for those less fortunate.
The goal is that anyone with the ability has a realistic shot at college/training so they can work in any field they choose where there is employment available
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You want to be a security guard? Interesting. I don't think many people would want to do that. Maybe you will be able to do that if it pays more. As for jobs like coal miner, it's not fair to make people do that for anymore than a couple years I think.
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Why not? Many guards sit at a console for hours on end and are free to read. I love to read and have dozens of topics I would delve into given more free time.My point though is that currently wages is one factor that goes into the desirability of a job, eliminate that and you will see a swing away from some high paid jobs. Who would want the stress of being an air traffic controller for instance?? Oh and I forgot geography . . . you might see a move away from the cities-- after all many people only move there in search of higher paying work-- they can all move back-- well in practice they can't but all of a sudden you will have huge competition for the few jobs in less economically strong areas
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
It wouldn't be necessary for you to help him. That's the beauty of communism. He doesn't need you anymore.
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This quote was in response to my idea that I might want to give a neighbor kid a few bucks by getting him to do some chores for me.
I confess I don't quite know what this response means. He doesn't need the job I can offer because .. . what the state gave him a job or is it that he has been educated to accept that he needs for nothing beyond standard Blue jean issue # 3?
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't know how to explain it too you better. We will all share the work. It doesn't matter how much you need to work. The work needs to be done, and we will all pitch in our fair share.
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This was in response to my request that my wife not work and we accept a lesser income. Apparently it is not acceptable to work either more or less than the state mandated amount. There seemed to be no mention of exemptions for parents so I guess you don't have the choice to raise your own child at home?
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
It wasn't meant to hurt you. You claim that a system where some have to work harder for less money is fair. How can I argue against that?
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My claim is that a system where a person has freedom is fairer than a system where someone else dictates exactly how much they will work with absolutely no choice for them. I will take personal freedom oveer equality of condition any day.
Oh and I don't think physical labor is NECESSARILY any harder than complex brain work. I've done lots of both types and I'll say ths for the physical jobs --- once you are done for the day, you are done . .. The brain jobs nag at you and I am often awake at night mulling over a particular problem and stressed that I find the best solution.
Oh and if a person is a hard worker dissatisfied with your wage, GET A BETTER JOB. Oh and Walmart does not exploit you,they offer a low wage job.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
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Some times it's difficult to pay people for results, but when did I say that you shouldn't when it's possible. I have repeatedly advocated it on this thread.
Yes. I'm opposed to you being ahead of me. Getting ahead rarely has to do with fairness in my book. You will have to justify it some how to convince me. How are people who don't get ahead inferior?
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This is contradictory-- how can you pay for results if you don't want anyone to get ahead of you economically ?? I'm willing to put in a 60 hour week to get results but you won't pay me for it.
oh and INFERIOR??? take that bullcrap somewhere else . .. we are talking about obtaining more stuff here, that's all.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I once believed like you. The thing I cared about most was playing the game and getting ahead. I realized that no one wants to play fair, and people started pre judging me before I had a chance to prove myself. I lost interest. Then I started to see how the system truly works, and I studied peoples true motivations.
I've been a communist for 4 years now. I doubt that you will change my perception of the world, but go ahead and try, and I know you can't change my experience.  |
See I don't care what other people's motivations are . .. I don't care either about what earnings or stuff other people have except to the extent that it influences the market rate for my services.
Oh and kid how does the system truly work?? Enlighten us.
Oh and of course I can cannot change your experience but I would probably have a very different perception of what it means. You see, to me, no employer owes me anything beyond a fair wage for my work and I define fair wage to mean what he can get other folks to do it for. I've been laid off before-- it sucks but a little initiative and you are back in a good job.
I'll tell you a little about my experience. My job experience has been that the employees who moan the most about getting treated equally are usually crappy employees. The good employees are too busy getting promoted and raises to worry about "equality"
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22-08-2004 03:11
ACK!
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