22-08-2004 19:33									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'm almost sure the state would disagree. Guy "takes a loan" (which in itself is illegal) and then promises 20% of the profits back for the money ("interest") By this point in the expansion, you have, no doubt, drawn national attention, and the state would have little choice but to intervene, because of the rising affluence of the area, it's defeating the "fairness paradigm" upon which the entire system is based. My hunch is (and again, it's not my system, so ultimately, we'll have to wait for the expert to chime in) that you would be shut down. -=Vel=-

Unfair to who though?

	22-08-2004 19:35									#152
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In that case , Kidicious , would you condone rather unfair business practices ? And is that copying really morally right ?

	22-08-2004 19:39									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Not misrepresenting you...asking for points of clarification about what YOU propose.

You misrepresent me when you ask the questions. It's not a big deal if you just don't do it so much. I'm sure I do the same thing.

You may ask me three questions. I will answer them regardless.

	22-08-2004 19:40									#154
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Vel - at leas Kidicious has agreed with us the rising affluence of a city or region is not unfair . Neither is that of individuals if they earn it without exploiting ( by paying more than the state ) .

	22-08-2004 19:41									#155
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm In that case , Kidicious , would you condone rather unfair business practices ? And is that copying really morally right ?

The thing is the state is already authorized to charge any price they care to in the interest of the people.

	22-08-2004 19:41									#156
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Kidicious - please answer the question in my post before your last .

	22-08-2004 19:45									#157
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Vel - at leas Kidicious has agreed with us the rising affluence of a city or region is not unfair . Neither is that of individuals if they earn it without exploiting ( by paying more than the state ) .

The business was set up outside the system. They trade with the system which is fine as long as those in the system agree. That's my rational.

	22-08-2004 19:45									#158
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What I also meant is - is the destruction of a company paying higher wages , causing prosperity , and giving the people more choice really in the interest of the people ?

	22-08-2004 19:48									#159
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm In that case , Kidicious , would you condone rather unfair business practices ? And is that copying really morally right ?

This one?

I don't think it would be unfair business practices, because no agreement has been made about fair business practices. The family has set themselves up as outsiders. If the system wants to trade with them fine, but with no trade agreement they are justified in dumping on the market.

	22-08-2004 19:51									#160
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm What I also meant is - is the destruction of a company paying higher wages , causing prosperity , and giving the people more choice really in the interest of the people ?

Does the company and it's workers pay taxes or something? Why should the system be concerned with them at the expense of the people who contribute to the system?

	22-08-2004 19:53									#161
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Of course it pays taxes . In fact , it is a major contributor to the local government programs , because it wants to maintain good relations with the state .

Also , even if the government had the power to close it down by flooding the market , would it be right to do so if it hurt the interests of the very people the government is supposed to protest ?

	22-08-2004 19:54									#162
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The workers also pay taxes .

	22-08-2004 19:56									#163
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Of course it pays taxes . In fact , it is a major contributor to the local government programs , because it wants to maintain good relations with the state . Also , even if the government had the power to close it down by flooding the market , would it be right to do so if it hurt the interests of the very people the government is supposed to protest ?

What would be the purpose of taxes in a communist system. The state pays everyone.

	22-08-2004 19:59									#164
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Also , even if the government had the power to close it down by flooding the market , would it be right to do so if it hurt the interests of the very people the government is supposed to protest ?

Who would it hurt, and why?

	22-08-2004 20:04									#165
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Where does the State, then, get it's money?

	22-08-2004 20:46									#166
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It would hurt the citizens of the state and that city/region employed by that business . It would also hurt the state directly , by getting rid of a great source of revenue and local aid , along with the prosperity ( which helps the state by creating a market for its own goods ).

Is it that your idea of a state is just like a business , only having the authority of a state ? And if so , where would it get the money to run itself ?

	22-08-2004 21:00									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Where does the State, then, get it's money?

It prints it.

	22-08-2004 21:42									#168
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You're seriously suggesting that the State continuously prints and gives out money without taking in any? Ever heard of the concept of inflation?

	22-08-2004 22:59									#169
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kidicious, i dont understand how you manage to always get everything ass-backwards!

	22-08-2004 23:25									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You're seriously suggesting that the State continuously prints and gives out money without taking in any? Ever heard of the concept of inflation?

Of course it takes it in. People pay for things.

	22-08-2004 23:27									#171
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm It would hurt the citizens of the state and that city/region employed by that business . It would also hurt the state directly , by getting rid of a great source of revenue and local aid , along with the prosperity ( which helps the state by creating a market for its own goods ).

Your argument it ending up at the beginning. It's not hurting the people if it's defending itself.

quote: Is it that your idea of a state is just like a business , only having the authority of a state ? And if so , where would it get the money to run itself ?

It's more than just th authority of the state. That's fascism. It's responsibility to the people.

	22-08-2004 23:29									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia kidicious, i dont understand how you manage to always get everything ass-backwards!

It's just the perception you get from your relative position.

	22-08-2004 23:36									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course it takes it in. People pay for things.

My faith in yout sanity is temporarily restored.

One has to wonder, tho, why, then, you did not simply answer the question wherefrom the state gets its money by "it charges for goods people buy from it" rather than with "it prints it".

	22-08-2004 23:38									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist My faith in yout sanity is temporarily restored. One has to wonder, tho, why, then, you did not simply answer the question wherefrom the state gets its money by "it charges for goods people buy from it" rather than with "it prints it".

My neighbors partied until 4:30 in the am, and I was just about to go back to bed.

	23-08-2004 00:25									#175
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I'm sorry....I fail to see how asking you to clairfy your position on a thing can possibly include "misrepresenting you." Perhaps you could offer a quote of that dynamic in action?

As to your granting me the boon of three questions...I'm afraid that's not how debate works, and I'm not going to play by those rules.

Since you have no less than two dozen questions already on the table which have gone unanswered anyway, I see no compelling reason to add to that list.

It is increasingly clear that your model is not based on real world assumptions, nor is it anywhere close to complete.

Until one or both of those pre-requisites are met, I cannot see where there's much to debate in any case, at least until the portions that ARE somewhat fleshed out stabalize, and do not change every couple hours.

If there HAS been a perception of misrepresentation in my posts, then quite likely that stems from my not being able to keep up with the shifts in your core arguments (one minute it's this....then it changes, and then sometimes, it changes back, or morphs into something altogether different).

But when you DO have a fleshed out model to discuss, I'll have questions.

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 00:39									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Kid calls himself a Communist. None of you other communists have taken any particular steps to distance yourself from him, or to refute his claim.

I do.
Well, I'm a Socialist (and a semi-market one at that), so I probably don't count.

	23-08-2004 00:48									#177
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I second Spiff.

ps. spiff, you in MJCF?

	23-08-2004 00:52									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I do. Well, I'm a Socialist (and a semi-market one at that), so I probably don't count.

Sure you count Spiff.

	23-08-2004 00:52									#179
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Hiya Spiff (and Laurentius!)

You do...which? Wanna distance yourself from Kid, or refute his claim....or both?

-=Vel=-

	23-08-2004 01:06									#180
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius ps. spiff, you in MJCF?

Simply PCF

But I do some things with the young ones occasionaly, given my age