24-10-1999 03:36									#1
	Proposed modifications for demo 3 - Opinions Requested Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Proposed modifications for demo 3

There are two big things that are going to become available in demo 3.
The first is real movement of military units ;-)
The second is naval units.

I have a fair idea of what I'd like to do to implement these, but I thought I would put my ideas up and see what interested parties think. I hope if anyone's violently opposed to these ideas, that they'll see this soon. I'm going to start coding this up tomorrow.

1) The player will move units on the board in the normal fashion found in Civ games.

A) Movement will still be simultaneous (which is the final plan).
B) Although the player's units will move on the ground, the AI units will still teleport as in demo 2. I simply can't put together a credible AI with normal movement in a short period of time. To compensate somewhat for the disadvantage that the player will be at, I will give the player perfect domestic tranquility. The people will never require garrisons to be happy while the player uses "normal" movement. If you turn your civ over to the AI, garrisons will be required as for the other AIs. If the player requires further advantages to make up for the lack of teleportation, I'll do something further as required.
C) Land units will be able to move two squares per turn on friendly territory. This is to help simulate the presence of a road network and pre-positioned supplies at home. If any part of movement would in any way involve a non-home square, then the movement available will be reduced to 1. Eventually units arriving at a battle with less than full movement points will be penalized in terms of which phase of the battle they can participate in. In demo 3 I anticipate having everyone fight all three phases provided they get there by the end of the turn.
D) Task forces can now only be formed when all the units are together in the same square.
E) I will use a move queue for the TFs like in civ, and use the same key commands like spacebar for hold, s for sleep, w for wait, etc.
F) I will try to get a decent goto command implemented, but no promises...

2) Naval Task Forces

A) Player will have control of what percentage of boats vs. land units are produced.
B) Boats can carry two land units. The boats are supposed to simulate triremes.
C) Task forces can contain arbitrary mixtures of land and naval units. However, only task forces with adequate naval/army ratio (1:2 or less) can go to sea. Task forces containing naval units cannot move inland. Note: the AI isn't smart enough to handle this distinction. The AI's boats can move and fight anywhere. However, the AI cannot attack a square that can only be reached by boat unless it has an adequate number of naval units in the attack.
D) A task force moving by sea can move two squares per turn. If the task force ends its turn at sea, all units in the task force lose 1/2 their strength permanently. This limits the effective range of naval operations to two squares. This is much more historically accurate than what is done in Civ. For most of history, landing operations with any more than token forces have been limited to something like a hundred miles from friendly territory.
E) Navy and army power are considered equivalent in terms of combat. Eventually under some circumstances there will be asymmetry in the way the types attack each other, but not now. Presently the only difference between naval and army units will come into play when a landing is contested. More about how a landing becomes contested in F.
F) Friendly task forces capable of moving at sea can attempt to Contest an enemy landing. For demo 3 this will be handled in a crude fashion. Friendly naval TFs adjacent to the site of the invasion (and those already there) will automatically contest the invasion unless involved in an attack of their own. Friendly naval TFs contesting a landing would normally meet opposing naval TFs at sea. I will instead kludge together a simulation of this. My idea is that if the forces contesting the landing have a superiority in naval power, that for the first phase of the combat, the power of naval units should be twice normal. This will crudely simulate the sea battle before the landing.

Well, that's the outline of what I plan to do so far. Opinions welcome!

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited October 24, 1999).]

	24-10-1999 04:27									#2
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You propose relatively minor changes. From what I've seen on the Tech model, I think it is time to include some of it into the next demo. It seems relatively complete(at least for ancient times), and besides each new demo should include at least a working version of one model currently being developed.(Just my opinion!)

Don't you agree?

	24-10-1999 06:47									#3
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They may be 'minor' changes, but there's a Lot of work involved! Plus its vital to see if the foundation for the military model works, or we need to go back and do Serious rethinking of the model.

Also, I'm trying to keep demo 3 limited to what I can do in the next 10 days, because there is some code reorganization we need to do in about two weeks. There will be a post on that soon. I would like to get the next demo version out before we do that.

Technicalities aside, your suggestion is good. Tech should probably be the next thing we do. But I probably wouldn't implement the whole ancient tech model at once, because the interface would be very tough with all that info.

However, I think I could do a trial version with 3 or 4 basic techs, and maybe as many 'plain' techs. They would have to do with military and economic stuff, because those are the only functioning things so far .

I'll see what LGJ thinks...

	24-10-1999 07:50									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What I think...

I think that's an okay start...i just don't know java and have just got the book from the library so it may be sevral days b4 i can understand it well enough to help out alot.

	24-10-1999 18:19									#5
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LGJ:

Don't worry if you're Java coding is not up to it when we're ready for the first simplified shot at tech. I think I can fairly quickly modify my old tech model and interface for the dry run. Once we're satisfied that the new tech model works ok, then we can do a full-blown model and start work on an interface.

The things we need to figure out before the demo 4 version of tech are what the cost profile will be for basic techs, and of course specific costs and prerequisites. For the basic tech cost profile I think something that costs exponentially more the higher the level should work well. That's because civ growth will also be exponential.

Anyway, we should probably start a new thread on the alpha-1 tech model and copy this stuff over to it. Can you start one with any reply you make?

Mark

	04-11-1999 18:23									#6
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Progress report:
I am close to done with the military modifications for demo 3. Anton/rentgen is working on the simplified version of the tech model we came up with (see tech 2 thread). Around the weekend we'll see if we should wait to put the tech stuff in demo 3, or just release it and put the tech model in demo 4.

	08-11-1999 05:29									#7
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Well, I'm almost done with the demo 3 mods. Anton is going to take a shot at the tech model, but is going to be delayed probably at least another week. Given that, I am inclined to go ahead and release just the military stuff above as demo 3. Anton's tech code will go into demo 4. My next big project is to get the new economic model going.

	08-11-1999 15:45									#8
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The teleportation is something that should be fixed ASAP. And if the AI can't handle this, then the AI has to be improved.

Peter

	08-11-1999 15:55									#9
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One question:
If you will have simultaneous movements and no teleportation: how will you handle paths of units that cross?
War?
Block?

Peter

	08-11-1999 16:11									#10
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Mark: I'll get my pathing AI stuff to you ASAP (within the next couple of days). Sorry for being out of touch for ages.

Jim

	08-11-1999 18:25									#11
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Peter:

When task forces (TFs) from different sides "run into" each other they will either fight or not depending on their orders. Current plan is to have each unit centered on a particular point within the square, and fill a certain amount of space depending upon its dispersion. Only during a conscious attack do the opposing units touch. If one unit's plan goes through the "footprint" of the other, then the movement will be blocked. The AI may allow for trying to go around it TBD. If you want more information you'll need to go through the model discussions.


Jim:

Great to hear from you. I hope your absence wasn't due to any serious problem. I'm looking forward to getting your code. If you're interested in doing more AI, as Peter says above, we could use some work in the area. (You know me, always have to put in a pitch ).

Mark

	10-11-1999 17:57									#12
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Demo 3 is basically done. I'm chasing down a few bugs and writing up a doc on the changes. I need one or two volunteers to check out the new demo package before release, just to see if it starts up ok. The reason I want to check just to see if it starts up is we have a new and easier distribution method thanks to Anton's help. If you already have the JRE installed from last time, the download will consist of a single file (called a jar file) that's double-click executable on windows platforms.

So volunteers, let me know here or by email that you're interested. Non-java types preferred :-)

The demo should be available in a few days on the new web page.

	11-11-1999 06:20									#13
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Gimme, gimme!!

	12-11-1999 04:16									#14
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Can I have a test copy as well please.

	12-11-1999 05:11									#15
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Ok, we now have 3 windows testers, which is enough. Anyone else should wait a day or two for the demo to come out on the new web page.

We also now have a Mac version courtesy of Dino the Dinosaur. Any Mac users who'd like to try it, let me know.

Thanks,

Mark

	13-11-1999 07:54									#16
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Demo 3 should appear on the new web page fairly soon. To those of you who I sent demo 3 to already, please get the new version of it when it appears since that version has a few minor improvements over the one I sent you three.