25-08-2004 06:38									#61
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I once had an idea for custom chess sets in which each side represents a different race. You could have Blacks v Whites, East Asians v Indians...the possibilities are endless. And the inevitable controversy would be sure to generate sales.

	25-08-2004 06:50									#62
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I AM CALLING YOU OUT!

WHERE DID YOU HERE THIS AND WHERE IS YOUR LINK?

THIS IS ACTUALLY A LINE FORM ONE OF CHRIS ROCK'S STAND UP ROUTINE.

I googled them and they are an old 60's anti-racism coalition.

Where did you hear this, and where is your proof?

Those links are nothing. One is to an obvious right wing joke page, the other just goes to the Berkely board of Education page.

	25-08-2004 07:06									#63
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actually the entire print media, and business society is inherently racist.

everything is printed on white paper. i mean, wtf?

	25-08-2004 07:08									#64
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the only thing I don't like is the black market. why is it called the black market?

	25-08-2004 07:18									#65
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The laws of nature are racist. Darkness is black.

	25-08-2004 07:20									#66
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Black people aren't black.

	25-08-2004 10:34									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And the game is chauvenist towards women. Because even though the queen is the most poweful piece. The most important piece continues to be the male unit- the King. Even though the female is more talented, she is expendable and can be replaced. But if the King is taken- the game is indeed over.

quote: Originally posted by Molly Bloom Oh, and yes, the queen was a vizier or counsellor.

Actually, the Western terminology about chess looks so incredulous to me. What about the Queen in the battlefield? I'm sure there are some examples of this in military history, but to make it a central piece in a game simulating war, is to me utter nonsense.

At least in Turkish we call the piece known as the Queen as "the Vizier" (Vezir) (as pointed out by Molly Bloom). Doesn't it make infinitely more sense in comparison?

Also, what about the bishop? Sure, there were warrior monks in military history, but were they an integral part of armies as fighting forces in history? If you imagine the chess piece bishop ravaging the board, what's that correspond to? A regiment of crazed monks with longswords? Or a crazed regiment of I don't know what led by a bishop? Too much of a strech of imagination .

I don't know the phraseology in Eastern countries but at least in Turkish that piece is called "the Elephant" (Fil).

As for racism in chess, that's totally absurd .

	25-08-2004 11:14									#68
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The Bishop is not called a bishop in all of the Western cultural sphere. In Danish for instance, it's called "Løber", which I'm not able to translate directly, but it signifies a certain position at the Royal Court of a close personal aide to the Monarch.

Likewise, the Knight is called "Springer" in Danish, which pertains to the horse itself and not the aristocratic/professional status of the rider.

	25-08-2004 11:53									#69
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When state and church aren't separate, there wasn't that much of a difference between a bishop and a lord, so its quite possible they led armies.

There have been numerous cases in history where the queen would act as a sort of vizier.

Hey AECCP comrades, how would you propose a more egalitarian boardgame?

	25-08-2004 12:13									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley When state and church aren't separate, there wasn't that much of a difference between a bishop and a lord, so its quite possible they led armies. There have been numerous cases in history where the queen would act as a sort of vizier. Hey AECCP comrades, how would you propose a more egalitarian boardgame?

I see the point. But was there ever a time in European history when the church and the state was not seperate? I mean, there was always a pope and a caesar, and sure at different times one or the other was the dominant factor in politics/policy making, but AFAIK there was never a time when the church and the state were not seperate.

Would my interpretation of the relation between the pope and caesar (church and state) be wrong/inaccurate? That would directly relate to the "bishops would count as lords on the battlefield" explanation.

As for queens acting as viziers, what I meant was that in Islamic and (more often) Ottoman history, viziers actually commanded armies on the battlefield in addition to their roles as court advisors. Queens may have acted as viziers at court but seldom did they actually command armies in battlefields (with maybe a few very rare exceptions, if at all). That was my incredulity about naming that piece as "the queen".

	25-08-2004 12:24									#71
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It doesn't have to be logical what they're named. Like with most things dating back to near pre-historic times, just a single King (real one!) at the appropriate time decreeing that a small cross should be added onto one of the pieces and it henceforth be known as the Bishop, is all it really takes. Maybe he did it so he could marry a Bishop's daughter...

Don't put too much into this naming of pieces business, you run the risk of becoming like the activists in the original post.

	25-08-2004 12:25									#72
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Well, the queen piece originally could move only one space, so essentially was stuck in court. Then I suppose some time later, someone decided that the new stats made for a better game.

	25-08-2004 12:26									#73
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quote: Black people aren't black.

That's awfully racist of them. Isn't black good enough for them, eh?

@Ancyrean: I guess the best example of warlike bishops would be those of the Ottonian empire, where one of the chief duties of a bishop was to maintain a certain number of knights, that the bishop then normally led in battle himself.

In Swedish, the bishop is called löpare "runner" (presumably refering to a courier of some sort), and the knight either springare "steed" or häst "horse".

The one that freaks me out is the rock - how can it move?!? The Swedish name is no better: torn "tower".

	25-08-2004 12:27									#74
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its not rock... its the rook, a word which i dont know what it means.

	25-08-2004 12:29									#75
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In the US its represented as a castle. That is indeed a good question, how the heck are large stone buildings supposed to be one of the most mobile pieces? In asian chess, theres a piece with the same function, except its called the chariot.

	25-08-2004 12:32									#76
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LC,

Re. the chess piece Bishop: Löpare/Løber cannot be directly translated into "Runner". Granted, it's the same word but the meaning of it is different - it's a formal position at the Royal Court, like I noted above. We even have them today, and I'd suppose you do too... Try to look for the guy who seats the King and Queen at the next televised state dinner, that's a "Löpare"!

Aide-de-camp is the closest translation I believe.

	25-08-2004 12:34									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator I demand equal rights for Asians and Native Americans. We need two extra colors in chess, red and yellow. And to prevent any upsets over anyone getting the first move, everyone should move simultaneously!

Actually, that's an interesting idea. Simultaneous moves, that is.

Each player would write down there move beforehand, and the moves would be revealed at the same time. If a capture was attempted but the target moved, the piece would be moved to the formerly occupied square but no capture would occur. If the pieces were to capture each other, both would be removed from the board.

	25-08-2004 12:38									#78
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Aight, this is what I'd rename some of the pieces:

code:

King   --> Sysadmin
Queen  --> Supercitizen
Bishop --> Moderator
Knight --> Deity
Rook   --> Off Topic board
Pawn   --> Double Login

	25-08-2004 12:39									#79
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Simultaneous moves? Mad Monk, want to start a forum game?

	25-08-2004 12:52									#80
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@Winston: That may very well be the historical origin, but it's not the meaning that people associate with the name of the chess piece.

Turns out we do still have a löpare at the court; a ceremonial position whose only function is to accompany the queen in certain formal contexts. Never heard of it before, and I don't believe I'm particularly unusual in that.


@AS: Rock, rook, schmook! Well, the word "rook" suggests a giant bird of Arabic folklore to me - I guess it makes slightly more sense than a rock ...

	25-08-2004 13:01									#81
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Smiley: maybe later.

LC: a rookery is usually a rockey area where seabirds and the like nest.

	25-08-2004 13:01									#82
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Hopefully we can agree that just because the majority of people take a certain word to mean something it doesn't, doesn't necessarily make it so.

	25-08-2004 13:12									#83
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@Winston: Sure. I do not however see that insisting on the "correct" meaning here has any interest beyond the antiquarian.

	25-08-2004 13:14									#84
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I'd say it does, as the (sub-)debate originated from the controversy over why it's called a Bishop in "Western" culture. Simply saying "it's not called a Bishop here, but a Runner" would be grossly misleading IMO.

And now, I'll shut up.

	25-08-2004 13:20									#85
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In most chess sets, it looks more like a Soviet missile anyway.

	25-08-2004 13:26									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Who's in favour of all chess players being forced to crawl on their hands and knees before Robert Mugabe to apologize? I mean, just as a start...

Of course, we should all bow to this paragon of virtue and good governance. In fact, all chess pieces should be painted black to show we are overcoming the stigma of colonial oppression.

	25-08-2004 13:31									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I'd say it does, as the (sub-)debate originated from the controversy over why it's called a Bishop in "Western" culture. Simply saying "it's not called a Bishop here, but a Runner" would be grossly misleading IMO. And now, I'll shut up.

It looks like it's wearing a bishop's hat.

	25-08-2004 13:38									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I'd say it does, as the (sub-)debate originated from the controversy over why it's called a Bishop in "Western" culture. Simply saying "it's not called a Bishop here, but a Runner" would be grossly misleading IMO.

It would seem to me that the least misleading would then be to say that in Swedish it's called löpare, which is now normally understood to mean "runner", but, in fact, originally refered to a servant of the queen's.

	25-08-2004 14:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Me!!! Why? Because of several reasons: 1) I believe back in the days as they invented the game, racism was more common, so they might have made the game racist back then... I don't believe there's anything racist in the game today 2) Why is it that white always has to start? And why is it always white and black? Couldn't it just be 'random' colors, were it could be blue against red or whatever? Thinking about it, it does seem racist somehow... 3) I hate chess

Chess was invented and palyed in India and Persia - no racism there .

And I love chess .

	25-08-2004 14:17									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Winston The Bishop is not called a bishop in all of the Western cultural sphere. In Danish for instance, it's called "Løber", which I'm not able to translate directly, but it signifies a certain position at the Royal Court of a close personal aide to the Monarch.

Over here, it's called "le fou", which can be translated either as "the crazy" or "the jester"