25-08-2004 14:33									#91
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk It looks like it's wearing a bishop's hat.

Me being from a non-Christian background, see it and think "Soviet nuke" first, "bishop hat" second.

	25-08-2004 14:52									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Chess spread from Persia both east and west, the east asian version having slightly different rules (pawns move back and forth and sideways, knights can move in a very long L shape, and the king is limited to a special zone).

That's Chinese chess. It is completely different from Chess, with a different board, different pieces, and different rules.

Japan has its own version (Shogi). Shogi doesn't have cannons, it's only in Chinese chess.

There is no peice the equivalent of the queen in both. The "bodyguard" pieces in Chinese chess are completely defensive and can only move in the general's "tent."

	25-08-2004 15:00									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Does the side that goes first win more often? I always thought the odds were fairly equal. So it really makes no difference who goes first. Thusly, white is not superior to black.

Yes. White wins more often, because you get to control the tempo if you play properly.

Therefore, in a chess tournament, several games are played with players use alternating sides.

	25-08-2004 16:40									#94
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It does make quite a difference, you can easily put black on the defensive...they take the center board control first, and black is disadvantaged because it has to wrestle it away from white, while white can simply assert...

However, if white fails to force black on the defensive in the first few opening moves, the advantage is gone. Also, being overly assertive can backfire.

Its much rarer for black to conduct queen's gambit than white, as well. Its very hard to do when white already has centre-board.

Anyway, bear in mind, that white is not always white...or black always black. Black might be emitting UV colours, and white infra red colours as you go about it...

	25-08-2004 17:14									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Over here, it's called "le fou", which can be translated either as "the crazy" or "the jester"

The jester is called narr (or hovnarr to make clear it's the one at the court - any fool can be called a narr) in Swedish - a position entirely different from the löpare.

	25-08-2004 17:20									#96
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quote: which can be translated either as "the crazy" or "the jester"

But...but...King Lear was the one who was mad, not the jester!

	25-08-2004 19:31									#97
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its a rook, not a roc, the giant bird in the stories of Sinbad.

	25-08-2004 19:34									#98
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Spelling of that one differs. The Persian is ruhk, if memory serves, so the 'oo' spelling would actually make more sense.

	25-08-2004 19:36									#99
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it's pronounced the same as the bird though... i doubt a relation.

	25-08-2004 19:39									#100
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actually, isnt it likely that the rook isn't a castle at all but a siege tower or something?

i looked it up and nothing said anything clear but, rooks were called castles until fairly recently. apparently, the early players of chess changed the eastern chariot to something more european (a castle tower)... the tower was on the emblem of the earls of Rochford, from where Rook is derived, I assume.

	25-08-2004 19:45									#101
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And created moving fortresses....

Bright idea. Castles that move!

	25-08-2004 19:48									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's Chinese chess. It is completely different from Chess, with a different board, different pieces, and different rules. Japan has its own version (Shogi). Shogi doesn't have cannons, it's only in Chinese chess. There is no peice the equivalent of the queen in both. The "bodyguard" pieces in Chinese chess are completely defensive and can only move in the general's "tent."

chinese chess is interesting

I have played a few games, am not very good

Jon Miller

	25-08-2004 19:50									#103
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it symbolizes salleys from the castles, perhaps?

	25-08-2004 20:06									#104
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Shouldn't we pait them all white, to show that these people have finally integrated into civilized society?

Or maybe grey to show a melding. Tie-Died always works.

	25-08-2004 20:11									#105
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its not about the melting pot anymore... now its the salad bowl. integration instead of assimilation.

	25-08-2004 20:11									#106
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I know...one side should be made of positrons, the other electrons...

	25-08-2004 20:14									#107
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what the hell are positrons? there are neutrons, electrons, and PROTONS in atoms.

	25-08-2004 20:16									#108
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What about the ions, racists.

	25-08-2004 21:17									#109
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quote: what the hell are positrons? there are neutrons, electrons, and PROTONS in atoms.

But what about ANTI-ATOMS in ANTIMATTER?

Every particle has an anti-particle.

Protons AREN'T positrons - because positrons have 1/1760 the mass of a proton, even though they have a charge of +1. Positrons have the same mass and spin of an electron, except the charge is different.

Because a positron is the antiparticle of the electron. An anti-neutron is the anti-particle of a neutron, same thing for anti-protons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle

In fact light is made out of two particles - a positron and an electron. Attracted by charge, equilibrated by centrifrugal force. Eventually the whole topic of annihilation, virtual particles and the more finer points of interaction leads into quantum physics, I believe.

http://www.lighttheory.com/proposed.htm

Apparently the whole properties of these particles and the actual workings delve into stuff like weak and strong nuclear forces and gluon charges, which I have yet to understand. However, I just made the remark since positrons and electrons generate photons which can make a unified colour...

Don't discriminate by colour....diversify by charge! Unify as one!

	25-08-2004 23:19									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean I see the point. But was there ever a time in European history when the church and the state was not seperate? I mean, there was always a pope and a caesar, and sure at different times one or the other was the dominant factor in politics/policy making, but AFAIK there was never a time when the church and the state were not seperate. Would my interpretation of the relation between the pope and caesar (church and state) be wrong/inaccurate? That would directly relate to the "bishops would count as lords on the battlefield" explanation.

during the feudal era bishops and abbots had fiefs - land held from the king in return for military support - just as did secular lords. Many kings preferred having clerical vassals, as they could influence the selection of a bishoprics next bishop, or an abbeys next abbor, whereas most secular lordships were hereditary, thus making those lords more independent. The military force of a bishop or abbot consisted of knights on lands that the said cleric had given out, in subvassalage. They were led by a designated secular official - i forget the name for the term. In some cases though bishops and abbots DID lead their vassals on the field of battle, though technically in violation of church law.

	25-08-2004 23:21									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist - any fool can be called a narr) in Swedish -

ditto for Yiddish. Foolishness is Narishkeit.

	25-08-2004 23:24									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I've seen a chess board in Venice with rabbis and Christian priests sold at the Jewish "ghetto"(tm). Those antisemitic bastards in the ghetto. The Rabbis were in black!

a black jewish alliance of course - its the pre-60's civil rights movement

	25-08-2004 23:32									#113
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Its a game people

At high levels, white does win more often than black due to the initiative of the first move. Some players would assert that the initiative of the first move is worth about half the value of a pawn. Among all but the elite, there are more than enough outright errors to make up for this advantage. Among the elite, there are actually a very high number of games that end in a draw

In a tournament a player will play equal number so f white and black pieces (or as close to equal as is possible)

	26-08-2004 03:04									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean Also, what about the bishop? Sure, there were warrior monks in military history, but were they an integral part of armies as fighting forces in history? If you imagine the chess piece bishop ravaging the board, what's that correspond to? A regiment of crazed monks with longswords? Or a crazed regiment of I don't know what led by a bishop? Too much of a strech of imagination . I don't know the phraseology in Eastern countries but at least in Turkish that piece is called "the Elephant" (Fil). As for racism in chess, that's totally absurd .

The first bishop depicted in a European chess set is I believe the bishop in the set from the Isle of Lewis:

http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/c.../goto?id=OBJ566

Certainly during the conflicts between Celts and Vikings, and Romano-Britons and Saxons, the clergy would play a martial role at times.

In Ireland, abbots could go to war (and did) against other abbeys or monasteries whose lands or resources they desired. Naturally, you could always blame the Vikings for this, as Christian Irish would employ Scandiavian mercenaries in these encounters, as did Christian kings.


Christian chroniclers (frequently monks) would then record what happened showing their abbot in the most flattering light.

Given this history, it then comes as less of a surprise to see a bishop in the ranks of the more powerful pieces in a set coming from an area where Christian fought pagan, and where Scandinavian culture and Celtic culture formed a new hybrid culture.

There is one rook shown biting the top of his shield - you can just imagine him desperate to get into battle and start shedding blood.

The queen looks monumentally bored.....

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Lewis_chessmen

http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/basics/cpr-hist.htm

	26-08-2004 03:46									#115
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That's some real work of art.

On a side note, why don't modern weapons such as tanks come in elaborate cermonial versions that swords used to?

	26-08-2004 09:29									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Don't discriminate by colour....diversify by charge! Unify as one!

Pah, uncouth barbarian.

Don't you know quarks come with colour charges?

	26-08-2004 10:33									#117
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LotM and Molly Bloom: Thanks for the explanations . The picture now makes much more sense to me.

Talking about the subject and reading over my own incredulity over why which pieces are named what, i now realise it should come only natural that a game as popular as chess gets adopted to the culture of wherever it's introduced to.

Since we Turks got the chess from the Persians and Arabs, and since our religion and political concepts are same/similar, we largely kept the middle eastern terminology: in Turkish, the king is "Žah", queen is "Vezir", rook is "kalé" (castle), bishop is elephant, and the knight is "at" (the horse-pronounced as utt as in utter). Particulary in light of what I read in response to my question, it's equally natural that the Western Christendom adopted the game according to its own circumstance and culture (in self criticism, I'd now say what would in fact be incredulous is to have Christian Europe to use the name vizier, or the elephant).

Why I say all this is that chess is one of my favourite games and I used to devote a good deal of time and effort in it (studying openings, examining variants, solving puzzles and such). With books in both Turkish and English in my library, it now occurs to me that I actually sometimes conceptualise the pieces as, say, "the bishop", and at other times as "the elephant" (probably depending on with whom I'm playing) .

By the way Molly, upon reading the links you posted, I also remembered Chessmaster 9000 has a 3D Island of Lewis Chessmen set!

	26-08-2004 10:45									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean By the way Molly, upon reading the links you posted, I also remembered Chessmaster 9000 has a 3D Island of Lewis Chessmen set!

If you ever get thechance (assuming you haven't been already) go to the British Museum and look at the pieces- I think they are absolutely charming, especially the seemingly insignificant details- the champing on the shield, the Queen's head slumped against her hand (I love her expression- "Are we going to war again?")
the long shield of the mounted knight so reminiscent of the Normans' depicted on the Bayeux tapestry.

I like finding art related to chess anywhere, and books too- I think Nabokov wrote two novels devoted to chess, although I can remember only 'The Defence' and there is also a Jacobean tragedy by Thomas Middleton called 'A Game At Chess' and an episode of 'The Prisoner' with chess played with real people on a huge board.

	26-08-2004 11:12									#119
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quote: 'The Prisoner' with chess played with real people on a huge board.

like on the Simpsons!

	26-08-2004 11:23									#120
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom If you ever get thechance (assuming you haven't been already) go to the British Museum and look at the pieces- I think they are absolutely charming, especially the seemingly insignificant details- the champing on the shield, the Queen's head slumped against her hand (I love her expression- "Are we going to war again?") the long shield of the mounted knight so reminiscent of the Normans' depicted on the Bayeux tapestry. I like finding art related to chess anywhere, and books too- I think Nabokov wrote two novels devoted to chess, although I can remember only 'The Defence' and there is also a Jacobean tragedy by Thomas Middleton called 'A Game At Chess' and an episode of 'The Prisoner' with chess played with real people on a huge board.

I've been to BM some 7 years ago but I only had time to see famous highlights, Egyptian stuff and such...Back then I was not aware of the Lewis set anyway... But next time, I'll keep it in mind definitely .

It doesn't count as art at all, but I remember in Star Wars episode IV (?) 3PO was playing some kind of holo-chess with Chewy . On a more obscure note, your mention of 'the Prisoner' episode (which I didn't see) reminded me of yet another scene, but in the Conan the Barbarian comic series (does anybody remember Conan? ). There, there was this king playing chess with a foreign dignitary on a huge board with real people, and the "pieces" had to actually kill eachother if a piece "took" another. He was casually chatting with Conan I guess as he carelessly lost his queen, who was run through by a knight after just having stabbed a pawn-dude...