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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
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What are the weaknesses of the Drones? -2 Research and an inability to run Green. At first glance these curses seem negligable, but then you remember that -2 Research means no research for the first 10 years. Ouch. And then you remember that early worm-powered exploration are why you love the Gaians so much.
Welcome to the Manifold Nexus Domai
I've recently been playing a bunch of Drones games, looking for that perfect early start for the high-score charts. Of all the landmarks, I've found the Nexus to be second only to the Jungle (of course). This has to do with gaining early control of the other factions and using them as tech slaves. But with the Drones --Research, this takes a bit of finesse, er, well, it takes 15 years of being nice and aloof.
A little history of some explorations into playing for score: Upon getting the Planetary Pack, and finally having access to SMAX for the first time, I was both excited and put-off by the new factions. They aren't balanced in the same way that the Smac factions are. Recently the re-appearance of the Hall of Fame has prompted me to have a go at a few games for score. At first I played with the Cybernetic Consciousness, which is obviously far and away the strongest faction in Smax (again, a lack of balance is a little annoying). But then I tried the Aliens, and was surprised to find myself actually liking them for an all out score-fest. The huge obstacle is their lack of commerce. I found this made them a bit boring for this type of game. I'd never played the Drones, so I gave them a try....
About my second game (large land map, lots of fungus, ironman, yes-Unity Survey, directed research, no-Look First), I happened to land right between the jungle and the Nexus, next to a big river system. I'm still playing that game for score, but I've since tried a few more games with the Nexus in range of the landing site, just to see how well I could do with it. So here's the basic idea:
Land and found HQ:
Must not use the look-first option if playing a land only map. The AI gets too confused and some wander around without ever founding a single base. To play for score, you want every AI to do well, so you can use them for trade and tech.
Send Second CP --> Manifold Nexus:
If the Nexus isn't in your territory, you won't get it's +1 Planet. Also, you need to 'discover' it by having explored at least 1 tile of the nexus-proper with a unit. In my high-score game, the Nexus is a few tiles outside my original territory, so I send the Colony Pod there.
Build Worm Army:
At the second base, the first scout goes to oggle the nexus, activating it. Then the fun begins. On a large map, it's easy to get 2-5 native units captured in the first 10 years. Use these to race to meet the other factions.
I greet you Roze, Aki, Chewed-On, and Sven:
You won't be able to talk to the aliens for awhile, so there's not much use in greeting them. Instead, find the other factions. Don't trade anything with them until you've discovered your first tech ~2116. There is no reason not to make this Centauri Ecology.
ICSing on the Domai Cake:
While your worm army builds itself and you pop pods on the way to meeting the other humans, your first two bases should become your first 4, then first 8. By 2125 - 2130 you should be way ahead in # of bases, if not overall population. Remember that Domai gets 1 drone made content per base. This means ICSing without a garrison is easy.
I'll take that tech, thank you very much: About this time you should also have a stronger military than all the other humans, except for Sven, who prides himself on being unattackable in his pond  . But between the other 3, you should now be able to Intimidate them. Get Social Psych and possibly Ethical Calculus from Chaw-Dawn. Get PlaNets, InfoNets, Applied Physics from the CyCon. And get something out of Roze. But do this with care.
The trick is to get yourself to Industrial Automation by researching Centauri Ecology, then Industrial Economics, then Industrial Automation. Yeah, that sounds weird. By bluffing your way to Planetary Networks, and possibly even IndEcon, you can cut the research b-line in half. You start with Industrial Base, unlike any other faction (no Morgan in a normal game). Use this to your advantage. Here are my seven secrets of successful Drone-powered Intimidation:
- Use the power of the Manifold Nexus to gain the biggest military and population. This makes all the AI into weak-kneed cowards, ripe for Intimidating. This works without the nexus, but it's very much easier with the free army.
- Gift techs to the AI until they become Submissive, or at least Magnanimous. Then demand Tech for not 'Crushing them like a bug'. Make sure to give the AI anything they are researching, even Sven and the Aliens, once you can talk to them. The idea is to never have an AI discover something that's not new to you too.
- Wait 2 years, then repeat. They won't talk to you in the first year after a good menacing Intimidate.
- If you can't seem to get an AI to cooperate, perhaps they are too strong? Give them lots of techs or call your bluff and invade with a worm or two.
- If you really need capitulation and surrender from the AI, give them a base, then take it right back. They'll surrender if you are the Big Mucho Military faction.
- Invade the AI factions at your convenience. The sooner the better though, so that you can build them up as commerce partners in safety. If any AI get's ahead of you and becomes uncooperative, use probes to get the profits of your earlier generosity, then invade them to remind them who's the Don (Dom). The power of the intimidate strategy is that it's not necessary to invade everyone straight away. You can take your time and submit one faction at a time with your worm army making a big trip around the map.
I know a lot of that is common knowledge, but it was fun to put it all together with the Drones. Their Industry and Drone control make them a perfect builder faction. However, their lack of research makes a Momentum game difficult. But with the Nexus, even Domai can go Green for awhile. Long enough to run Planned and then Dem-Planned, and then Dem-Planned-Wealth. By the time you've dealt the death-blow to a few factions and made them subservient, you will have built all the early Secret Projects, and can then switch to Dem-FM-Wealth for the rest of the game. Until you have the other factions roped in, there isn't a point to running Free Market. You can simply take the tech you otherwise would have researched slowly. Instead, a focus on SP building and dominating the landscape will make the later switch far more profitable.
-Smack
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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I generally step on AIs before I ask them for anything. If one is too far away for that, I might butter it up, but my general attitude towards AIs is that they're hardly worth my notice.
If I want to play momentum, I prefer Yang. Early on, I can ICS for a large industrial base, and then I can just pump out endless waves of mediocre units. Regarding the other momentum players:
I don't like Miriam. The Believers are okay, but I'd still rather have Yang.
I really don't like the -industry of the Spartans or Fungboy.
I get bored whenever I play the aliens.
Still, I'm usually content to build, as it's more entertaining than conquering, and in a multiplayer game, it's usually better to help yourself than hurt another.
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WotanAnubis
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quote:
Originally posted by smacksim
Do you use Intimidate very often? Or do you actually take over a faction before getting it to produce techs for you?
What's your favorite non-Alien Momentum faction? |
Being the excessive bleeding heart that I am, I never intimidate anyone. Once I started a game with the Believers with every intention of being a war-mongering offspring of a female dog, but once I simply bullied the Consciousness into submission right from the start I actually felt so bad about it that I quit and started a new game.
I'm very weird like that.
But my favourite momentum faction would be the Spartans. And I like playing them as builders.
I'm very weird like that too.
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WotanAnubis
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
It's just a game, the perfect opportunity to let out that evil side.  |
Apparently, I don't have one. Or at least, not a very big one.
So, no nerve stapling, no nerve gas, no Planet Busters, no repealing of the UN Charter in the first place, not even Punishment Spheres.
Because I just can't shake the fact that, whenever I play a game (except maybe Pong), for the merest of moments it's all real. Or at least, real enough.
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Nabvrimn
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Yep, I'm kind of like that too. No nerve stapling, punishment spheres, genejack factories, police states, or mind control*. I have no problems with lethal atrocities, though. I just never do them because I never remember to get the charter repealed. Dead is dead, but slavery lasts a lifetime.
* since it's just a game I occasionally slip on mind control if I have the cloning vats, but I usually stick to cybernetic or eudaimonic.
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Natalinasmpf
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This is such a coincidence since I've just recently discovered Domai at the Nexus too....
But I don't use intimidate much. And he was on an island. Nevertheless I quickly grabbed up the Maritime Control Centre, and quickly built superior naval infrastructure
I didn't switch to Free Market though. Basically what I did was switch to wealth, then have most of my bases achieve golden age. Trade Pact was on, anyway. I'd prefer to keep that planned because together with wealth and planned, I have +4 Industry! Except for some bases I captured that were so far away, so it'd be useless to achieve golden age anyway. (Yes, yes, you can say, switch to free market, then you can achieve +2 effic, but that's minor).
Anyway, I'm quite far from Eudaimonic (researching retroviral engineering), but when I do, muhahahahahaha! (I'll attempt to get Cloning Vats so I can switch to power so I come up with NO morale penalties!). If I don' (fat chance, I'm dominating everthing)t, since I have Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, I can switch to knowledge anyway.
But the Caretakers won't bow down! I've captured half their bases, and all they can go is a TRUCE?! What? Serve me you foo'! They never talk with me for long either, so I can't go, "to prevent me from crushing you like a bug", either.
Anyway, yeah, the Nexus really helps Domai. It helped me thrive in my semi-island, then get some isle of the deeps...then move on to some other coastal area when they can't go Green.
Regardless, I'm STILL confused. Domai, being the communist he is, should have aversions to free market, not Green.
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Natalinasmpf
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quote:
Why the rush to get away from Wealth? Power's only good if you're attacking someone, and Knowledge is inferior to Wealth as long as you don't have enough production and energy to finish something useful every turn in every base, or as long as you have useful things to build. But if Knowledge is better than Wealth now, don't worry about the probe penalty, and go ahead with Knowledge. It's not like the AI is very good at probing anyway. |
Wealth + Eudaimonic yields -4 morale. Power + Eudaimonic has no morale penalty, if you have cloning vats, you get to keep the +2 industry. Not to mention, with Domai, +6 industry isn't more powerful than +5, as well. And by the time I get Eudaimonic, I want to keep the +1 Planet or so, because there is much to reap from the fungus.
I don't want the -4 morale to be disastrous. By choosing power + Eudaimonic + cloning vats, I can get +2 support, +2 industry, +2 Econ and +2 growth with none of the morale penalties. I still have to fight native lifeforms, and I was still at war with Marr and H'minee.
Since I had hunter-seeker algorithm, I could switch to knowledge without much penalty. Oh the AI is good at times. Mind control...egash!
quote:
As far as Aversion: Green, I think it's because he's too short-term, favoring the immediate benefit of the people over any long-term benefit. |
Yes, but as an economic model? Free market doesn't really benefit the people much, unless one were to divert 30-40% to Psych like welfare, which might be a tad wasteful, then say, rather planned/green + eudaimonic.
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
Wealth + Eudaimonic yields -4 morale. Power + Eudaimonic has no morale penalty, if you have cloning vats, you get to keep the +2 industry. Not to mention, with Domai, +6 industry isn't more powerful than +5, as well. And by the time I get Eudaimonic, I want to keep the +1 Planet or so, because there is much to reap from the fungus.
I don't want the -4 morale to be disastrous. By choosing power + Eudaimonic + cloning vats, I can get +2 support, +2 industry, +2 Econ and +2 growth with none of the morale penalties. I still have to fight native lifeforms, and I was still at war with Marr and H'minee.
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-4 morale is not the killer it should be. Your troops can't get worse than very green anyway, but they should be winning when attacking since weapons are stronger than armor. Try it sometime. On defense, -4 morale is a boon where you have children's creches. I've seen units defend as Elite (++++) for +100% from morale!
+6 Industry is wasteful compared to +5, but you were arguing against the morale hit. This late in the game, I'd be inclined to run Demo/Simple/Knowledge/Cyber, because effic becomes so important. Throw in the Manifold Harmonics, and Cyber becomes a no-brainer. Industry and Econ become pretty meaningless this late, as you have more energy than you know what to do with, nothing left to build, and only tech between you and victory.
quote:
Since I had hunter-seeker algorithm, I could switch to knowledge without much penalty. Oh the AI is good at times. Mind control...egash!
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Bring probe teams along! Not only do they defend against probe action, whatever your probe rating, but they let you perform offensive probe actions. Even if your probe rating is +0, the AI can mind control your undefended bases cheaply. -2 simply doesn't hurt more than +0.
quote:
quote:
As far as Aversion: Green, I think it's because he's too short-term, favoring the immediate benefit of the people over any long-term benefit. |
Yes, but as an economic model? Free market doesn't really benefit the people much, unless one were to divert 30-40% to Psych like welfare, which might be a tad wasteful, then say, rather planned/green + eudaimonic. |
Keep in mind you can only have one SE aversion. Which is worse, Free Market where people have to work long and hard for the benefit of the faction as a whole (presumably you don't just horde the energy), or caring for this worthless fungus at the cost of the people in Green?
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Natalinasmpf
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I suppose its not just Planet....Green is more of a long-term goal, yes. Its "saving up for the future generation", or something like that.
quote:
Industry and Econ become pretty meaningless this late, as you have more energy than you know what to do with, nothing left to build, and only tech between you and victory.
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Not necessarily. I mean, for ICS'ing with colony pods that cost 15 minerals instead of 30... (or rover colony pods costing twenty).
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-4 morale is not the killer it should be. Your troops can't get worse than very green anyway, but they should be winning when attacking since weapons are stronger than armor |
But when eco-damage gets high, or when Planet is taking vengeance, weapon strength suddenly becomes less of an issue than morale. Actually what I wanted is not the hit to morale, but because I guess I like Elite units, and when I clinch Cyborg Factory and Command Nexus, I don't like morale penalties getting in my way.
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Natalinasmpf
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quote:
eco damage piles up |
This is when morale matters.
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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Morale is not very important for dealing with late-game worm armageddeon. Just have a few string SAM artillery pieces (which do use weapon values against native life) to take out locust stacks, and a few empath scout rovers to take out ground units, and you're set. Maybe throw in an empath artillery unit depending on exactly how spore launchers work. The key is to blow away stacks, and never defend against more than a few native life per city, per turn.
Late-game, you should be able to spam 30 mineral colony pods just as easily as 15 mineral colony pods, thanks to satellite minerals and possibly other things like the Bulk Matter Transmitter (actually gives +50% minerals, rather than +2). If you can't muster the minerals, you can certainly muster the energy.
If you like elite units, go ahead and do whatever, but they aren't real important when you have a tech lead. I find myself tripping over elite units anyway late in the game, without even trying.
If you've set up a massive SSC, running FM + LV might be worth it, but I've never tried that. 20 transcendi/city do the trick just fine.
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
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I'm on my third iteration of this type of game on a large map. Now I need some advice. I'll upload some screenshots of my latest game in a bit. It's the best start I've ever had in an SP game, and it's Ironman (not that that does anything really).
Best Start Possible with the Drones
The year is 2125. I've made H'minee flee in a colony pod, destroying 1 city and capturing the other. Then, this turn, I subjegated Chaw Dawn AND Roze. My reputation is Noble . I've got 6 or so turns to IA. I've got two cities setting up for a run at the early SPs, which I'll begin really soon to get the HGP, allowing another level of ICS. I meet Aki this turn, who will be next in line for subjugation........
Advice needed: For score, population and commerce are everything. To that end, I'll be filling the map with Drones and donor bases to my (soon to be) 3 vassal states. My questions are:
- How much should I focus on building up my vassal states, and how much should I focus on just building up my own empire?
- Secondly, when, if ever, should I run FM? The Drones running Dem-Planned-Wealth are how I've played my last few games ~2180 or so, at which point I was done warring. This time I should be done with my continental wars ~2150 or so.
- Thirdly, should I build on a 2x2 grid, or a 3x3. I'm more comfortable with 2-space (3x3), largely for the utility of crawlers, but I'm sure that in the end I can pack more citizens in a 1-space (2x2) base-space-base configuration. The problem is that this is somewhat slower to develop for a lack of minerals until min-sats.
- Fourth, I've turned off Transcend victory, but I'll still have to keep one enemy alive in a corner of the map. This will surely be one of the aliens. Should I keep both aliens or eliminate one?
Pictures soon. Here's a save from 2125 if you'd like to take up the challenge of playing a game for score...
 Attachment: domai-nexus-2125.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
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The World according to Domai:
 Attachment: hq3.jpg
This has been downloaded 68 time(s).
Last edited by smacksim on 03-09-2004 at 01:39
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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by smacksim
How much should I focus on building up my vassal states, and how much should I focus on just building up my own empire? |
Here is the Livid Imp rule to subdued pactmates:
Build up the builders and lose the losers.
Aki, Zach, Morgan, are all worth putting some time into to build up tech trades and commerce. The rest I let build up on there own. You can put a ton of work into Cha Dawn's land, and he'll still be a putz. I use momentum factions as war dogs. Sic them on factions you want to slow down but don't really have time to deal with yet. With the proper tech gifts, they can conquer a nearby neighbor. Right before they take the last city, go to war with the losing faction and contact them, subjugate them too, them ask your patsy factions to kiss and make up. One thing you can do to help momentum factions build is to hand over old formers to a newer city (one that is not yet supporting a dozen troops for a non-existent war).
quote:
Originally posted by smacksim
Secondly, when, if ever, should I run FM? |
Yes....now...do it now  Drones under FM, building all the tech enhancements they have available, will keep them up in the tech race. The efficiency hit in Planned is a killer by mid game anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by smacksim
Thirdly, should I build on a 2x2 grid, or a 3x3. |
Single tile spacing is good for three reasons:
1. Uses less space - If you are on anything other than a Tiny map, this shouldn't be an issue.
2. Speed - The raw turn advantage you gain from plopping bases down in the same turn they were created. This is the only reason to consider 2x spacing when playing the AI.
3. Defense - Defense radii overlap (interceptors, aerospace complexes, fletchette defense). Reinforcements are close and can shift to cover attacked cities. Inner bases are nearly immure to attack. Since this is the AI we are talking about, this also shouldn't be an issue.
Last edited by livid imp on 02-09-2004 at 22:10
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Here is the Livid Imp rule to subdued pactmates:
Build up the builders and lose the losers.
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A good rule. Its just tough to build them up as densely as possible while maintaining optimal territory boundaries for further expansion. I think you know what I mean....If I give them one base that isn't completely surrounded with more of my bases, their territory will prevent me from building more tightly packed bases for them in their own territory....
So this means that optimally, I need to build 4 bases to donate just 1, then surround that layer with say 6 of my bases and give up the remaining 3 interior bases. It's a big project. How should I do this and not spend all my treasure on the endeavor, quelling drones, etc.?
quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
You can put a ton of work into Cha Dawn's land, and he'll still be a putz. |
Perhaps he is the one to sacrifice, once I've subjugated Sven....
quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
I use momentum factions as war dogs. Sic them on factions you want to slow down but don't really have time to deal with yet. With the proper tech gifts, they can conquer a nearby neighbor. Right before they take the last city, go to war with the losing faction and contact them, subjugate them too, them ask your patsy factions to kiss and make up. One thing you can do to help momentum factions build is to hand over old formers to a newer city (one that is not yet supporting a dozen troops for a non-existent war). |
I've done this too, but I'm actually most interested in keeping them all at peace so that they build infrastructure rather than goofy units like the 4-1-8 Empath Noodle. The idea is to completely finish all warfare as soon as possible, while keeping a token enemy out of reach.
The hardest part is when one of my vassal states decides to attack another vassal state. Don't you hate it when they say: "But I've been paid for the elimination of the Cybernetic Consciousness and I intend to fulfill my debt." ARGH!!!!!  I've never figured a way to change their minds on that stance. It does help if you never encourage them to war in the first place, but sometimes they'll just make war for the hell of it.
quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Yes....now...do it now Drones under FM, building all the tech enhancements they have available, will keep them up in the tech race. The efficiency hit in Planned is a killer by mid game anyway.
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There is no tech race. I own all the labs, or will shortly. This type of game takes a different strategy. Ordinarily, yeah, of course I'd run FM as soon as reasonable, but there are these reasons not to do so for awhile:
- Industry --> Crawlers Facilities Colony Pods Secret Projects
- Longevity Vaccine + Domai == 100s of drone free PTS size three bases in a very few turns. Remember, population is more important than tech for score. We just need the proper techs for infrastructure and speed of expansion...
- War on Sven will require some aircraft or at least ships. This is most easily done while in Planned rather than FM
- I can still capture more worms with the Nexus. If running FM, the Nexus is worthless. So finishing exploration and/or warfare seems best done in Planned.
- I own the other researchers. Sure, tech is very important, but I think this is one time when doubling the research rate is less important than trebbling the expansion rate.
quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Single tile spacing is good for three reasons:
1. Uses less space - If you are on anything other than a Tiny map, this shouldn't be an issue.
2. Speed - The raw turn advantage you gain from plopping bases down in the same turn they were created. This is the only reason to consider 2x spacing when playing the AI.
3. Defense - Defense radii overlap (interceptors, aerospace complexes, fletchette defense). Reinforcements are close and can shift to cover attacked cities. Inner bases are nearly immure to attack. Since this is the AI we are talking about, this also shouldn't be an issue. |
I agree with 1 and 3, but 3 is a non-issue already. It's only 1 and 2 that concern me. I want max population in min turns.
I have to disagree with you about speed. Its just not as simple as it first looks. Yes a single colony pod gets plopped faster, but shouldn't one take into consideration the speed of capturing the map with territory? Then there is the speed of getting units out of the empire to go finish off the AI. And the speed of moving crawlers to exterior resources. The speed of getting a base established on the coast to attack Sven, etc...
In this type of game I can later adopt any AI bases in my way, but it's nice to contain them. Further, there is the issue of surviving the mid-game, production wise, until Satellites. Base-space-Base spacing requires heavy terraforming and then must wait for Sats to grow past X size. I agree with your principles, but need a modified strategy for this type of game, or do I? I still see the advantage of 1-space. Mostly though I'm concerned with fencing in the AI and controlling/regulating their expansion.
Thanks for the reply. I'm at 2132 now and have about 10 turns before my units can fully engage Aki. Then I prepare for Sven by building a coastal base and shipping in resources to have it build a moderate navy. But Sven is less important than focusing on expanding my own empire and my other pactmates....
-Smack
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26-08-2004 05:18
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