01-09-2004 22:26									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I don't see how that is rewriting anything... but you may... who knows what you see.

Admittedly he was rewriting his position, and his attack was opportunism hidden by faux indignation.

	01-09-2004 22:43									#212
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Drake disagrees with me, so I am putting him on ignore

	02-09-2004 05:25									#213
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quote: please put me on your ignore list. Please, stop replying to anything I say.

Once again Ned asks someone else to do what he could much easier. Usually it is asking someone to prove a negative, but here asking me to put HIM on my ignore list.

	02-09-2004 05:47									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: please put me on your ignore list. Please, stop replying to anything I say. Once again Ned asks someone else to do what he could much easier. Usually it is asking someone to prove a negative, but here asking me to put HIM on my ignore list.

I could never put Ned into the sinbin of the Mollyverse.


The view of history from that through the looking glass place that is the Nedaverse is simply too amusing to ignore.


I am particularly enjoying how he equates the office of the Roman Emperor with the office of the American president (possibly only something that has occurred to Ned and Richard Nixon) and his view on the Barbary Pirates.

Apparently, Europeans had to wait for Jefferson to show them what to do with the pirates, which is kind of interesting, given that France and Great Britain were somewhat preoccupied with the Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars.

But it's nice to see that Ned thinks their priorities weren't quite right.

	02-09-2004 06:10									#215
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Molly, no doubt you are a good historian and I really enjoy discussing history with you.

Imran, in contrast, is just an ass.

As to Howard position on Iraq, I often watched the debates in Commons and it seemed to me that Howard was supportive of the war at the time. He now says that had he known then what he knows now, his decision would have been different. But it UNFAIR to say that Blair and Bush were wrong at the time based on the information available to them then when even Howard, and for that matter, Kerry voted for war based on that same information.

	02-09-2004 08:02									#216
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quote: Imran, in contrast, is just an ass.

I'll take it as a compliment.

Btw, you seem to ignore the major part of the argument, which is par for you, it isn't saying that Bush and Blair were wrong based on the information available... it is saying that they should have done a better job of filtering information and not making it say what they wanted it to say.

Personally I don't think that the WMD was the reason and I don't care if it was. Some do, however, and that's their right.

	02-09-2004 14:50									#217
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If WMD wasn't the reason then our leaders lied to us.

	03-09-2004 05:16									#218
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You act like that is a surprising thing .

	04-09-2004 00:22									#219
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quote: If WMD wasn't the reason then our leaders lied to us.

No, it was WMD programs and the intent Saddam to develop and possibly use them, and if you misunderstood that it's your fault.

	04-09-2004 00:39									#220
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Where are the WMD programs then?

	04-09-2004 00:50									#221
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I've seen a couple on the Discovery channel.

	04-09-2004 19:29									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Besides, Mr.W, these same people (Howard) publicly endorsed Blair's position on Iraq prior to the war, based on the information at hand. Now they, like certain of our Democrats, seek to "rewrite" history for purely "political" reasons. People who do this are not worthy of leadership.

No-one's re-writing history. Sounds like Howard realised his mistake, and it was due to the Governments' misleading of many people with false evidence or at best over-emphasising mistaken evidence that he made a different choice to now. By changing his mind based on available evidence is he thus a legit target? I don't see what relevance this all has to being pre-emptively ostracised by the current US admin, who can't even seem to admit when they were wrong. Which is the greater sign of leadership - refusing to change tunes in the face of nil evidence for your previously stated POV, or being flexible enough to make and change decisions based on what is known at hand?

	05-09-2004 05:03									#223
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In the Conservative world its far easier to change the past than change your mind.

	05-09-2004 05:38									#224
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MrWhere... Howard is entitled to say, had I known now what I knew then, I would have voted differently. But, from my understanding, he is bashing Blair for doing what Howard voted for himself at the time. There is a distinction.

Even Kerry says that his vote for war was a correct decision at the time. He only disagrees with Bush's going to war "without" allies, and you know what that means. He would give Paris a veto.

I assume Howard is saying as much as well. I had no idea the Tories have also surrendered British foreign policy to a French veto.

	05-09-2004 15:25									#225
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I hope all that spin isn't making you dizzy.

	05-09-2004 15:48									#226
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So have we all agreed that Howard is the Anti-Christ? Excellent. I've held that opinion since about 1986.

	05-09-2004 16:12									#227
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Howard is really quite poor, he doesn't really have much chance of winning the next election. He's more about uniting the party and holding things together while they work towards something new.
The main selling point of Howard was that he would give Blair a hard time in the house of commons.

	06-09-2004 13:02									#228
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OPD, well, I hope this row with Bush shows the Tories just how incompetent Howard is. He clearly is an idiot.

	06-09-2004 13:03									#229
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Actually he seems to be much more intelligent than Bush. This spat may win him a bunch of votes.

	06-09-2004 13:14									#230
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Imran, I bet Margaret is upset with Howard too. She would never have put up with an appeaser in the Tory ranks. Howard has gone soft. I doubt it gets him any votes even as it get him the disrespect of British patriots.

	06-09-2004 13:46									#231
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That's nice, but Howard isn't appeasing anyone... only ultra right winged numbskulls may think so, but that doesn't make it true.

	06-09-2004 14:39									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: If WMD wasn't the reason then our leaders lied to us. No, it was WMD programs and the intent Saddam to develop and possibly use them, and if you misunderstood that it's your fault.

The Prime Minister produced a report to Parliment that said that Saddam's troops had WMD that they could deploy in battle in 45 minutes. What about that suggests weapons programs / misunderstanding on my part?

Saying now it was all about weapons programs is just rewriting history, that's certainly not what they were saying here.

	06-09-2004 14:43									#233
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And, MikeH, was Blair lying?

	06-09-2004 15:05									#234
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That all revolves around whether you think he thought the information he was presenting was true or not.

	06-09-2004 15:18									#235
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Precisely. In the US, the Dems say Bush is lying simply because the information turned out to be untrue.

	06-09-2004 15:25									#236
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It's more a case in both places that the governments used the worst case intelligence, not the best quality intelligence. They wanted to go to war and needed some excuse.

	06-09-2004 16:28									#237
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Shouldn't leaders be worried about worst-case scenarios?

	06-09-2004 16:35									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Shouldn't leaders be worried about worst-case scenarios?

Yes, but they shouldn't present the worst-case scenarios as "slam dunk" definites, and strip all the qualifiers that they're given when they present them to the world.

	06-09-2004 16:37									#239
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Exactly.

	06-09-2004 17:05									#240
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When's the last time any politician presented a case with all (or, frankly, any) of the qualifiers that they're given by their advisers?