06-09-2004 17:11									#241
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So you think it's ok to try and persuade people that the war you are trying to start is valid based on some extremely tenuous and unreliable intelligence you are passing off as fact?

	06-09-2004 17:29									#242
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I don't know if it's OK, as I don't really have enough information about what Bush & Blair knew to make that determination. It's certainly not unprecedented or surprising, though. When you're trying to sell something, you present the strongest case you possibly can and avoid weakening your case with qualifiers and contrary information. That's just the way it works.

	06-09-2004 20:03									#243
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Not in war, a matter of force and not choice. The fact that they needed to make the argument, nevermind how tenuous it is, demonstrated that they had a choice.

	06-09-2004 20:08									#244
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As an aside, when will Bush launch a verbal attack on a high ranking member of the church so we can have the thread "Bush Bashes Bishop"

	06-09-2004 20:10									#245
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quote: Not in war, a matter of force and not choice. The fact that they needed to make the argument, nevermind how tenuous it is, demonstrated that they had a choice.

War isn't a matter of choice?! What planet do you live on?

	06-09-2004 21:00									#246
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Hmmm.... I know, let's declare war on someone.

Seems like a choice to me, as opposed to having war declared on you and your existence under threat, which isn't the case, no matter how much you abuse the memory of 9/11 to further your own political ends.

	06-09-2004 21:05									#247
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That doesn't even make any sense...

	06-09-2004 21:20									#248
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It makes perfect sense. If you have war declared upon you, nukes, ships, wave after wave of soldiers determined to end your existence, you have the right to defend yourself proportionally to preserve said existence. Thereby, you exercise the choice, live or die, which isn't much of a choice.

Where a situation exists where the choice results in you living either way, (or even less of you due to the war itself) you decide whether or not to declare that war, more a frivolity than a matter of necessity.

As for 9/11, I was anticipating the "we'll be suicide bombed into oblivion" BS that has often been the basis for the argument "we are at war, our survival is threatened by the terrorists"; equally BS since firstly it is woefully inaccurate and secondly does not even on its own merits justify a disproportionate response.

	06-09-2004 21:32									#250
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Drake's on drugs

	06-09-2004 21:34									#251
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No, I'm psychotic. Get it straight...

	06-09-2004 21:38									#252
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Then you should be on drugs

	07-09-2004 00:20									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Shouldn't leaders be worried about worst-case scenarios?

Why isn't Bush shitting his pants over global warming then? Let alone presenting it as undeniable fact?

Oh, right.

	07-09-2004 16:36									#254
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Dauphin, if Bush wanted to do something about Global warming, he would simply have to cut the oil supplies to India and China.

	07-09-2004 16:39									#255
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If he wanted to do something that would actually work, he would cut oil production and imports from Saudi to 0.

	07-09-2004 16:48									#256
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Whaleboy, isn't that what I said? Cutting off India and China kills two birds with one stone. We solve global warming and oil prices fall due to lack of demand.

	07-09-2004 17:02									#257
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How exactly would he achieve that? Short of starting the worst war in Human history?

	07-09-2004 17:44									#258
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MikeH, War? When has it ever mattered to a serious environmentalist whether human beings suffer and die so long as the environment is protected?

	07-09-2004 17:48									#259
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Ned, don't be silly, nothing is more destructive to the environment than war.

	07-09-2004 18:05									#260
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quote: Whaleboy, isn't that what I said? Cutting off India and China kills two birds with one stone. We solve global warming and oil prices fall due to lack of demand.

Hardly, the USA still consumes more oil, basically we need to reduce global oil consumption and fossil-fuel carbon emissions to 0. If prices fall, the third world are likely to consume more oil in any case, the problem is compounded. Furthermore, I don't know where India and China get their oil but I know it's not the USA, considering it imports far, far more than it produces.

	07-09-2004 18:07									#261
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Ned, don't be silly, nothing is more destructive to the environment than war.

Then I suggest that we pursuade the Chinese and Indians to voluntarily commit suicide to avoid disturbing the environment.

	07-09-2004 18:09									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Hardly, the USA still consumes more oil, basically we need to reduce global oil consumption and fossil-fuel carbon emissions to 0. If prices fall, the third world are likely to consume more oil in any case, the problem is compounded. Furthermore, I don't know where India and China get their oil but I know it's not the USA, considering it imports far, far more than it produces.

I hardly think that the US alone can still be enough to cause global warming. Let's check the models.

As to China and India, I was thinking of using our unchallengable fleet to divert tankers headed their way.

	07-09-2004 18:11									#263
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And, oh, if China and India were to both declare war on the United States, what could they actually do except file complaints with the UN?

	07-09-2004 18:14									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I hardly think that the US alone can still be enough to cause global warming. Let's check the models. As to China and India, I was thinking of using our unchallengable fleet to divert tankers headed their way.

Were you aware that Russia and the middle east have huge oil reserves and are connected by land to China and India?

Or that both India and China have nukes?

	07-09-2004 18:18									#265
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MikeH, pipelines don't stand a chance against our infinite range stealth bombers.

As to the nukes, ever hear of MAD? Besides, we will soon have a missle defense.

	07-09-2004 18:20									#266
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Pretty much stole the words out of my keyboard MikeH.

quote: I hardly think that the US alone can still be enough to cause global warming. Let's check the models.

25% of carbon emissions, and set to rise. As of now, any substantial increase from fossil fuels (causing a net increase to existing ecosystems) will simply compound the problem at the moment. There is enough in the atmosphere currently that increases beyond the capacity of the carbon sinks to absorb it, thereby maintaining or increasing present levels will cause serious harm.

	07-09-2004 18:21									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Besides, we will soon have a missle defense.

	07-09-2004 18:24									#268
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quote: MikeH, pipelines don't stand a chance against our infinite range stealth bombers.

I find it highly unlikely that the USA will take on Russia and China in a war to reduce their oil consumptions when the effect on the American economy will be catastrophic by doing so? Infinite range? .

quote: As to the nukes, ever hear of MAD? Besides, we will soon have a missle defense.

Missile. You expect that defense to last, what, 10 years before a countermeasure is found? I can't honestly see the USA going to war over this, and I cannot see any democracy doing anything except driving itself off a cliff... the political ramifications of the decision to eliminate the global consumption of fossil fuels are too great and would run contrary to the interests of democratic policians.

	07-09-2004 18:38									#269
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Whaleboy, the hypthetical is that Bush should take the matter seriously as if the matter of global warming were life and death. There are ways to handle "emissions" without reducing our own consumption one bit. I just laid a few ideas on the table.

And why do you think the Russians would go to war with the United States in order to rescue a few Chinese so that they can continue to pollute the world? Doesn't make sense if you presuppose that the Russians too were serious about global warming. But if they were not, and were more concerned about making oil profits, then I see them filing a very harsh complaint with the UN. Very harsh. Something we might even read.

	07-09-2004 18:46									#270
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Earth calling Ned, Earth calling Ned, come in Ned!