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-Jrabbit
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of the Electronic Egyptians
Feb 2002
time: 23:36
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debeest -- Yes, you got it right. Just wanted Edgeblade to learn something that gave me a lot of trouble -- that celebration still has value, even in non-rep gov'ts.
Edgeblade -- no time to download tonight, so just a couple quick comments.
My recommended switch back to Monarchy is not specifically to trade -- it's to get back to decent production levels with the freedom to build and move militia. This will allow you to build the camels you will need.
Regarding trade routes, yes, you only get ongoing bonuses from three. But that doesn't mean you should stop! The game will "keep" the top 3 routes, so if you had (for instance) an early, 32 GP route @ +1 arrow/turn among your 3, a much-later 166 GP payoff will likely replace it at a higher rate.
I'm no expert on trade, but I know enough to tell you to continue it at virtually all times.
It appears to me that your early infrastructure is really holding you back. If you don't need temples until your 8th city, why would you use 40 shields for that when you can have another settler???
Quick note on WoWs -- i doubt anyone posting regularly in this forum has built the Great Wall in the past several years. we're always glad that the AI seems to value both GW and the Pyramids so highly. This allows us to get the truly worthwhile WoWs (for me, Hanging Gardens and Colossus, tho lately I've been going with Marco Polo instead of Colossus).
I would also comment that very few here would tie up early production by manually building a WoW. (Though some likely do, it's not commonly done AFAIK). for me, it's (a) rush to Monarchy, (b) rush to Trade, then (c) rush camels for my first WoW.
Regarding roads and irrigation, they should be done AS NEEDED, edgeblade. If you have irrigated a bunch of grassland and plains squares but the city's only size 4 or 5, you have wasted valuable turns! Better would be to build roads. Best would be to found MORE CITIES.
Speaking of city size, I think you place too much value on it in the early game. I want to kick out settlers as much as possible, and that means staying size 1 or 2. If you're rushing to size 3 or 4, you just have to suppoort that size with more martial law troops. Those guys should be out of town, exploring the countryside, while your city issues another settler to go found a city in the nice location your warrior found. etc.........
quote:
(im forever building libraries, universities, templs, colleseums, banks marketplaces etc) |
All these things cost money!!! Ever wonder why you have so much trouble building up a decent treasury? late in the game, you'll have a big population base and can support most anything, but in the early and mid-game, the loss of income alone should make you question the true value of so much infrastructure.
Early in the game, all you need are temples enough to prevent unhappiness. marketplaces would be next, built in cities with enough income to self-sustain their maintenance cost through the 50% increase. Libraries and unis in your SSC ONLY -- yes, there are exceptions. Maybe the odd harbor in a seaside city. While there may be special needs (distant cities with need of a courthouse, for example) that's should be about it.
I think we're well on our way to identifyiing the problem here...
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Regarding the current game, I haven't seen it. But i would tell you that Democracy is much easier to sustain than Republic!! You still need to be very aware of troops away from home, and may need to move the Lux slider up considerably, build some infrastructure to keep distant cities happy, etc. But if the "entry to democ" can be handled, generally it's well worth doing.
Even more worthwhile in a warlike world is to rush camels for the Statue of Liberty (SOL) and go to fundamentalism. you will find great pleasure in the butt-kicking you can do!!
Keep posting.../
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Edgeblade
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pyramids is the best wonder in the game for me (and for a lot of people who also post on here) because your cities grow at twice the rate, and its cheaper than having a granary in the cities you want to grow...this means higher production rates, higher trade and higher tax earlier on because your cities are 2x the size
as far as not buying temples until the 8th turn, even with 3 units in the city, i still get unhappy people (i generally have luxury at 0% in monarchy and use entertainers because in monarchy my cities are generally too small without any infrastructure to give me enough goblets to satisfy the unhappy people)
as far as going back to monarchy to help troop movement, generally i dont need to move many troops in republic because the main aim when i get to republic is to keep up with the AI (try to keep up at least) and warring is not really in my interest to be honest, i know that if i switch to fundamentalism (just 4 turns to research it now) then the ai will just own me with better troops (i am only just keeping up with them now) and since i am on an island there would be little point going for an all out war because the AI on the island with me is puny compared to the rest who have been seperated from each other most of the game.
i find it difficult to rush-research to trade because i have to goto astronomy quickly to get copernicus since the ai love that one a lot
i continued with the game for a few turns and progressed a little imo, but here it is anyway
 Attachment: playing this 6.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
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Edgeblade
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uhm, if any of the "not quite so really amazing players" want to play a game i can play between 3:30pm and 5:30pm and from 11:30pm til around 3:30am GMT (excluding the days i have off work etc ;D)
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Six Thousand Year Old Man
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Ad Rock
Aug 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Just for the record - I'm a hand built first WoW man.
My cap does 3 units (often Warriors, but if I have the tech I put in a horse) - one for early exploration - an optional Temple and then start a WoW - its going to be the HG of course.
This way I normally have the HG and a celebrating cap before Trade.
Stu |
I agree. I typically will start my first WoW before I know Trade. 2 Warriors for martial law (3 aren't usually needed, as I try to keep city size low in the early game), possibly a Settler and a scout to wander (depending on how my other city/ies is doing), and then start the WoW.
Edgeblade - Pyramids has its devotees, but I and others here would say they are a mixed blessing in the early stages of a Deity-level game. If you grow your cities fast, they require improvements for happiness and/or units for martial law.
Somewhere in the Great Library is the 'size 2' strategy - basically the idea is to grow your cities to size 2 as soon as possible, and then rearrange the workers so as to maximize shield output. That way, they'll produce a lot of units (caravans/settlers, especially) and won't require Temples to keep them happy. Pyramids, of course, makes it harder to keep cities small.
Re: Copernicus - I lose that one to the AI at times, too, but frequent delivery of demanded Caravans will more than make up for its loss. No wonder is an absolute must-have.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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I don't know.
I usually drive for trade immediately, and then try cranking out the wonders. Generally, this means that I miss out always on Pyramids and Hanging Gardens, but it means I get just about every one afterwards.
In the meantime, I try to get up to the unhappiness limit of cities for my government, which IIRC, is 7 for Monarchy and 9 for Republic.
Beyond that is not worth the cost in terms of improvements before having at least one Happy wonder, and even then, you can get much work done with 9 large cities in Republic, than you can with a larger empire.
Then I drive for the SoL, and Monotheism, to get an Early Fundy with Mike's Chapel, and then conquer the world.
I don't really care about Copes, or any of the lesser wonders, so long as I get Marco Polo's so that I can more quickly progress to Democracy through tech trading with the other AIs.
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Edgeblade
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everyone just gives conflicting advice...oh so hard :| heh
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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quote:
Assuming the AI has obliged (I don't see this often) by giving you the 4 (not 5) needed techs,
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5 techs.
Horseback Riding
Masonry
the Wheel
Construction
Engineering.
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It will not take long before you lag behind in turns per tech.
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Sure, but once I get Democracy, I can revolt to an early Fundy and start conquering the world.
And I have often seen the AI cough up what they consider less valuable technologies along the Engineering tree for the more valuable ones of Republic, and Trade.
Finally, given 6 AI, all you need is one tech from each and you will be more than satisfied. And I can trade the same tech to each AI player to acquire all my techs, which is a wonderful scam. 
As for Copes, I've played, and won using your strategy too. I'm rather more bloodthirsty, and I prefer conquest over research, stealing techs over researching them myself.
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Six Thousand Year Old Man
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Ad Rock
Aug 2000
time: 00:36
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I can see where BK is coming from re: MPE. Tech swapping not only gets you techs, but also gets maps, if done correctly. And maps, of course, let you trade more effectively.
The thing with MPE is that it needs to be used immediately. In ToT and MGE, the AI will pretty much hate you after the first turn following contact. Makes swapping techs a lot more one-sided. And naturally the AI will ask for key techs like Invention or Gunpowder, which you may not want to give up in a conquest game - or if you haven't built the corresponding WoW yet. In an early landing attempt, of course, MPE makes tech gifting easier.
In a conquest game, or really any game in which the human player is aggressive, MPE can also pay off with huge tribute/gift sums each turn.
I guess I have become an MPE convert over the last couple of years. It almost feels dirty to cheat the poor stupid AI so easily using the diplomacy screen that MPE enables, early on.
But I like to get Copes too, if I can 
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Edgeblade
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just out of interest, when you are ahead in the game (ie on your F3 form, it says you are supreme etc), and you have the democracy tech, do you/should you go into it asap or what?
i have found democracy to be a hinder to my way of playing (Which is changing all the time anyway). And im not fully sure of the advantages of democracy except the fact you cant attack anyone until they break the treaty and attack you etc
i think in the one game that i did play, my food was reduced quite a bit...but as i said, i dont know the advantages/disadvantages of democracy as well
this game that im playing now, i went along the engineering route more than usual, i was the first to get leonardos (which is good for me...yes i know veteran soldiers are no more when they are upgraded) because most of my units are not upgraded when i dont get it, and i find in the end im getting dragoons attacking my phalanx's
i missed out on copes, and as a result my ssc (which doesnt have much trade because most of the caravans went on wonders earlier on in the game) isnt doing very well...only producing 144 beakers in 1853 (one of my cities is currently researching the hooverdam) although my science tax rate is only at 50%...as well as that it has 3 trade specials (whale, silk and spice).
I really think i need some help in getting my SSC correct...ive never had any ssc producing more than 640 beakers per turn in any of my games since i started trying.
i dont klnow what i do wrong, i get the science upgrades, i try for all the wonders (my copes was almost finished when the ai built it but i couldnt buy it because i had no gold  ), and i get trade specials, rivers, shields etc, irrigate + road and yet it hardly ever puts out many beakers
Attachment: ca_a1853.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
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Edgeblade
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seldom bribes cities my ass
in my last game, the egyptians continually bribe my city (ok i did take over it from them), but i continually have to check the outskirts of the city for the diplomat to make sure hes not there heh
what about trade and production benefits??
and is there any upkeep for soliders (i am currently being pissed off by 3civs biulding cities on my island...and im having trouble getting rid of them since they have teh same or almost the same tech level when it comes to units
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Edgeblade
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ok, gimme an idea of howlarge the cash buffer needs to be...
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Edgeblade
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they just ignore my feeble threats, and i find it very hard to take over an enemy city as generally they go for all the unit techs while i go down the science/government route to start off with so they generally have better units. Also i find it hard to trade iwth the AI because after our first meeting no one wants to trade. And not only that but because we are all on different islands, i dont meet most players until a little later in the game, and by then they always have a lot of gold
in the current game, i had around 1000 gold when they bribed my city with a diplomat...so obviously they must have quite a bit of gold
i am finding it very hard to destroy even the smallest enemy cities, since i havent played many games on deity yet, or many games on civ at all, my experience of warfare is somewhat clouded, i normally avoid it as long as possible until around the time i get cavalry..ie ive caught up with their unit techs, but by then the ai have gotten a foothold on my island...
i have taken some cities on their islands, but that is as far as i get, it seems a futile task in trying to take over another city...no matter how hard i try, their defensive units generally win and i have no idea how to boost my options apart from trying to get ahead in tech...which is happening slowly, but not as quick as i would have wished.
and to re-ask my question, what is the difference between the standard normal version of civ2 and the MGE that i have...
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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quote:
they just ignore my feeble threats,
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Are you Supreme?
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and i find it very hard to take over an enemy city
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Do you have diplomats available? Steal technologies from the AI so that you also have the military technologies to conquer their cities.
Secondly I notice that you haven't learned the foremost advantage that the human player has over the AI, and that is concentrated forces. For this reason, Railroad is an important technology, as it allows you to concentrate all your forces in the entire empire upon any one point.
In your game that you posted, you had no railroads connecting your cities, so of course it is going to be hard to take down the AI, because you do not have sufficient forces in one area.
This is also why you are struggling to conquer isolated cities, because you do not have the freedom of movement provided by railroad.
quote:
Also i find it hard to trade iwth the AI because after our first meeting no one wants to trade. And not only that but because we are all on different islands, i dont meet most players until a little later in the game, and by then they always have a lot of gold
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Islands are good. They allow you to take advantage of two continent bonuses when trading. Do you know how to use caravans and are you familiar with some of the vagarities of trade that help you to increase your payoffs from camels?
Secondly, do you know about shipchains, and how they can be used to solve your logistics problems at sea? That to me is your biggest problem right now, you don't know how to organise your forces so that you can conquer your enemies efficiently.
For this reason, it is often better to not build a large sprawling empire in the beginning, because it will be difficult to achieve the number of forces necessary to conquer cities.
Generally, it is better to move your units via ships, because your ships will move faster over the sea, than over land, until you get railroad. Then the opposite will be true.
quote:
and to re-ask my question, what is the difference between the standard normal version of civ2 and the MGE that i have...
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Vanilla civ AI just wants to be taken by you.
The AI is much less hostile to weaker powers than on MGE, which tries to give the AI some killer instinct.
Probably the best case of this, is when you are playing vanilla civ, you can win the game with one city size one, provided that city is built on a gold mountain. You launch a spaceship by begging funds from all the other civs, that take pity on your weak nation, so long as you are able to first establish a network of alliances.
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-Jrabbit
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of the Electronic Egyptians
Feb 2002
time: 23:36
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Edgeblade -- If you like Republic, you will LOVE Democracy! In essence, it's like Republic but without the corruption. (OK, it's deeper than that...)
And if you're having diplomatic trouble with the feisty MGE AI, get to Commie and buy the United Nations. They must offer peace (and can only avoid it by refusing contact).
Another key to late-game success -- SPIES!!! By far, the most overpowered, underpriced piece in the game. For 30 shield, you can steal a tech, poison or bribe a city, even nuke it (but don't go there...). But the best use of a spy is...
1) free "inspection" of the city (costs 1/3 of a move point), followed by
2) selective sabotage of city defenses (bringing down the walls).
So you'll know exactly how much defense is there, and whether they're likely to be Vets (barracks). Then you can stage your attack with precision.
Also, have you used the "insta-fort" technique yet?
More on the MGE AI: takes more gifts to reach Worshipful, takes fewer turns to go from worshipful to bad attitude, is much less likely to form an alliance and much more likely to break them. The upside is that it's very easy to provoke WAR! while maintaining a Spotless reputation (which I always do, for fun). The difference in nastiness really show up in the One-City Challenge, where diplomatic success is critical.
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debeest
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Edgeblade, the cost of bribing a city (yours or theirs)varies according to several things. One is cash on hand. The basic formula is
bribe cost = citysize * [(gold +1000) / 1000] / distance factor
So, that middle multiplier increases by one for every thousand gold you have.
Other factors can also affect bribe cost a lot, but this shows the effect of gold.
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offa
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North Newington
Jul 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Edgeblade
The biggest problem with this game i have found (starting so late) is that not many people play it anymore heh. |
But they play it so well, and they are so helpful. I think you would be hard pressed indeed to find better advice on playing civ3, which is played by lots more people.
I am not an expert so the main advice I can give is to believe all the great stuff the others are telling you. If you can start well (not easy) civ2 is much easier to win at deity than civ3. As suggested by others a fairly effective technique is to switch to fundamentalism, set science to zero and steal techs and bribe cities from the AI. Much more satisfying though is to read through Solo's early landing guide... and marvel.
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Edgeblade
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what is the insta-fort technique...never ever heard that one
i can start well on deity, i dont know why, but i always get ahead of the AI in most games normally to falter around the middle of the game and have the ai catch up with my rapid-style
the current game however is pretty good, i am getting better simply by listening to these guys which is good, but with not many human players to play against my improvement is getting stinted hehe
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05-09-2004 10:31
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