08-09-2004 04:25									#61
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Insta-fort involves moving two engineers onto one tile where they each still have some movement left, and using both of them to build a fort on the same turn with their remaining movement points. Handy way to get close to the enemy without letting them have an easy first shot at you.

	08-09-2004 05:43									#62
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Insta-fort involves moving two engineers onto one tile where they each still have some movement left, and using both of them to build a fort on the same turn with their remaining movement points. Handy way to get close to the enemy without letting them have an easy first shot at you.

You can also "pre-charge" a Settler or Engineer (start it on a lengthy task, but interrupt it before finishing. The turns of 'work' will be stored in the Settler/Engineer and it will then complete a new task instantly, if the new task takes fewer turns than the task that was interrupted) and build a fort in one turn if needed. Useful trick when you don't have Engineers yet.

	08-09-2004 05:46									#63
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mhmm, 2 problems generally, 1) my engineers probably wont be around when i need them, 2) i assume you only progress at 1 square/turn (unless roaded/railroaded) which is pretty slow...but sounds handy nonetheless)

i will try it


i am still finding it difficult to attack cities of the ai with the same tech level as me, its a war of attition and generally i lose heh

and doing the fundy route (and bribing cities) seems like a good tactic, however it means the AI will always be ahead on tech than you since they get it before you do, but i will try it in this game because i am only on par with the ai...i think the only way i will win is to win by early landing heh


just out of interest, is the date 1890 a new record for the latest date that you research/trade/steal the Pottery tech? (i didnt get it because i ahd the pyramids...no use for granaries, and the ai built the hanging gardens)

	08-09-2004 17:22									#64
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I must admit, that's the latest date I've seen to acquire Pottery.

Another fun tactic you may not have considered, edgeblade: In a conquest game, as soon as you get Railroad, trade or gift it to all your enemies. They will then proceed to build access roads to all their cities for you.

Don't get hung up on being the tech leader (says the man who always is...). You will get a tech every time you take a city, so even as a research-plodding Fundy, you can always be within a tech or two of the top dog. As long as you can attack with a decent-value unit (ideally, an 8), you can beat down 3 and 4 defenders with regularity. Under Fundy, you will have enough cash to build replacement units for the attrition.

Oh, and make several engineers part of your military force. They travel with the troops and provide needed infrastructure along the way (roads/RR/forts).

	08-09-2004 20:26									#65
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heh, im normally pretty slow to get to fundy anyway...im just starting out atm so im trying new stuff all the time obviously


btw what is the tech/wonder that allows you to see th eentire world?

	08-09-2004 20:54									#66
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Apollo

	13-09-2004 17:39									#67
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quote: Originally posted by debeest bribe cost = citysize * [(gold +1000) / 1000] / distance factor

Actually, this is the real formula:

bribe cost = (gold + 1000)/(distance + 3)*(city size)


And this is unit bribe cost:

Price of a unit = (gold + 750)/(distance + 2)*(number of shields)*0.05

	13-09-2004 23:00									#68
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...except for settlers & engineers ...

	14-09-2004 02:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Edgeblade i am still finding it difficult to attack cities of the ai with the same tech level as me, its a war of attition and generally i lose heh

Before the modern era of Howitzers and Stealth Fighters that can be a chore. One trick you might not be aware of is the use of Diplomats to bring down key city improvements (especially Walls). Also "squatting" units on high-shield tiles to force the city to disband defenders before the attack goes in (may take a turn or two to work).

quote: just out of interest, is the date 1890 a new record for the latest date that you research/trade/steal the Pottery tech?

I have gone whole games avoiding Pottery like the plague, since it causes all your cities to lean toward producing Salt. Occasionally I've deliberately gotten it in late game to see if it will cause a change in commodity supply, allowing a repeatable unblocked commodity, but that does not seem to work often.

	14-09-2004 05:03									#70
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Caravans and freights cost more to bribe, too, right?

	14-09-2004 22:49									#71
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i only researched it because it was the only tech in my list on that round :\

what happens if you buy an enemy caravan...does it become supported by the nearest city to you? (i know if units are closer to enemy cities than your own they appear as NONE)...does a caravan, or could a caravan be a NONE ?

whats the formula for engineers + settlers?

	14-09-2004 23:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Edgeblade i only researched it because it was the only tech in my list on that round :\ what happens if you buy an enemy caravan...does it become supported by the nearest city to you? (i know if units are closer to enemy cities than your own they appear as NONE)...does a caravan, or could a caravan be a NONE ? whats the formula for engineers + settlers?

Yup, bribe an AI camel nearer to an AI city and it will be a NON. It's a good idea to walk it to one of your cities for rehoming if you want to deliver it.

The best source I have seen for info about settler/engineers is ...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...4383#post334383

One of the stranger things about Civ is the high bribe cost of settlers. I have seen it happen where a settler near a city will cost 2-3X more than the city itself. This has always seemed more a bug than a thought-out part of the game. But, that's the way it is.

Monk

	15-09-2004 01:36									#73
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I believe Sets & Engs cost exactly double (that is twice their nominal shield cost in the formula)

Stu

	15-09-2004 01:37									#74
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Caravans follow the same rules for bribing as regular units regarding city homing. This can get interesting when you have all 3 supplies blocked by trade routes, especially in One City Challenge. Delivery can create a new route, freeing up a real supply for repeat deliveries. Higher cost is probably due to greater shield cost.

	15-09-2004 13:04									#75
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so there is little point bribing a caravan near an enemy city (except to free up trade routes) etc


i still dont completely understand the way the supply/demand works, ive read about a system on this forum but that was a bit ago and i knew nothing about the game then

what REALLY bugs me is when i make 3 caravan and click on the supply and demand chart, and see some far away city of mine requires say wool. By the time the caravan gets there...it says the city no longer requires wool and do i want to continue moving or setup a trade-route

given that most of my cities at the start of the game when i start trading are normally pretty close to one another (although the further away cities generally have less infrastructure), what is best to do?

and how often is this going to continue to happen...is there any way that i can find out/guess whether or not a city is still going to need wool by the time my caravan gets there?

	15-09-2004 18:28									#76
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Demand cities are somewhat ephemeral by nature. Don't get hung up on it, just make reasonable efforts to take advantage. In the long run, you will be better off concentrating on distance, best-path roading, city size (beaker count), and the like -- because you completely control them. I always check demand when deciding caravan type and try to send needed goods to distant cities, but I won't go much out of my way when there's a nice size 8+ coastal city without demand that I can easily access.

Best way to control this is to work with shipchains and RRs so that you can deliver at great distances on the same turn you build. A caravan that takes a couple hundred years to reach its destination should not be surprised to see that conditions have changed...

	15-09-2004 19:33									#77
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lol

but even so, in most of the games i play all the players are on different continents so it makes trading harder...

	15-09-2004 20:33									#78
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If you're fortunate enough to find a nearby continent/island, establish a city there for 2-continent trading bonuses.

Rush toward early sea travel.

Some like Lighthouse. (I think it expires too early and prefer to head for caravels.) Establish a shipchain to a distant empire and trade like mad. With any luck, you'll have a repeater like Hides and you can pave the AI streets with leather!

	15-09-2004 22:00									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Edgeblade lol but even so, in most of the games i play all the players are on different continents so it makes trading harder...

But this is what a trader dreams about; it is just exactly what you want. Trading with a smaller off-continent AI pays much better than trading with your own, even larger cities on the same continent. This is how you race through the tech tree. Once you learn how to create ship chains, your trading will be easier, not harder, and definitely more profitable, both in coin and beakers.

On the city changing demand on you, this problem is covered in several threads by samson and solo dealing with demand factors, and I think in the EL Guide, too. When and how demand/supply lists change is a function of several factors including time. Approxamately every 16 turns a city can get a shift; but, I find that keeping track makes my hair hurt and I seldom bother. As Sir Rabbit suggests, having demand change on route is just part of the game that you learn to deal with.

For non-conquest games, getting a good handle on trade is the best way to improve your game. It will be worth the effort, I think.

Good luck
Monk

	16-09-2004 02:59									#80
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Regarding demand changes, read through the formula for the particular commodity you are sending out for a long-travel journey. If the demand is based on issues that can change quickly, such as size of city, number of techs, roads, etc consider the likelyhood of it changing enroute. Travel by sea in the early and mid part of the game is usually faster, and can be made almost instantaneous with ship chains. RR in mid to late games equalizes the land side of things.

	16-09-2004 20:34									#81
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is there a list of the trade things showing which is move valuable etc?

and is there some formula, which will give you an idea of how much you will get by using city size, position etc


and whats the bonus for 2-continent trading?? (what does it equate too)

ie if you have two 20 cities on opposite sides of a long island with road inbetween, do you get more for your route if say you traded in wool (which was in demand) or do you get more by taking it to a city size 4 on another continent etc???

in total what factors affect trade and by how much?

	16-09-2004 21:03									#82
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Most of the questions you ask were answered by Samson in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=64729

You need the Base Trade value for each city, which can be tricky to get for an AI city; I often use a "guess" of 1 arrow for each citizen, with an add-on if there is Whales or Silk in the city radius. For the rest the AI seem to focus on Food and Production, not Trade.