02-09-2004 07:54									#31
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Collegestation, Pekka, Collegestation

	02-09-2004 07:55									#32
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quote: That's carrying the French schtick a bit far isn't it, Lancer?

Nah, it just shows those Montrealians are americanized.

In France, we crap on each other to cover the stench

	02-09-2004 07:57									#33
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I can't speak to IT possibilites at all; that ain't my bag... But can reccommend either Edmonton (yay!) or Calgary (yuck!) to suit your other needs.

Cheap, cheap cost of living... Less sales tax than the rest of Canada AND affordable housing!

Calgary is only an hour or so away from the beginnings of Banff National Park and the Rocky Mountains... Excellent skiing and hiking. Edmonton is a short drive away from Jasper National Park (also the Rockies) and it has the longest stretch of urban parkland in North America (the North Saskatchewan River Valley)!

Both cities have hard-working hockey teams that AREN'T full of overpaid sissies like you'll find in Toronto. Plus, both the Flames and Oilers are stacked with Finnish talent: Kiprusoff, Nieminen, Jussi Markkannen, rising star Jesse Niinimakii...

Edmonton, especially, will love any Finn... Just tell them you know Jari Kurri!

PLUS, Alberta has the lowest unemployment in Canada. So if that whole IT thing doesn't work out for you, you'll have other options!

Hooray!

	02-09-2004 07:58									#34
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The pissing is a bit far, but Montreal is closest thing we have to a New Orleans, anyways.

	02-09-2004 07:59									#35
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"In Canada, sanity is the norm rather than the exception "-Spiffor

"That's carrying the French schtick a bit far isn't it, Lancer?"

Naa, just replying in kind to the anti US crack.

	02-09-2004 08:03									#36
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ALSO: regarding weather, Edmonton and Calgary will certainly make you feel at home, snow-and-cold-wise.

Like snow? Sometimes we get it in August!

Like cold? How's -40C (some days in January, usually; not the norm, of course... although...)?

And we love it! For the most part, anyways... It's also charming in that we complain about the heat if it ever breaches 30C. I'm not poking fun, either... I'm one of the loudest complainers!

____________________________

And as well, Pekka:

Here's a map of Canada. Vancouver Island is off to the lower-left, just off the coast of British Columbia, near Vancouver. It's a mix of rainforest, beautiful coastline, and charming small-towny-ness (with victorian Victoria thrown in for good measure)... OH, how I wish to retire there!

	02-09-2004 08:04									#37
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Oh. Well. Carry on then.

Except, he's not from Montreal, and people from Quebec have less use for Parisiens than you do, IIRC.

	02-09-2004 08:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor In France, we crap on each other

That explains how you treat your allies.

	02-09-2004 08:07									#39
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Vancouver is the most beautiful city I've never seen. I was in the airport once and was amazed by the mountains...wonderful.

	02-09-2004 08:09									#40
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Vancouver definitely fits your initial description better, but you will make more money in Toronto. It should be noted that part of the reason is that the work culture in Vancouver is more laid back - far more a normal 9-5 atmosphere than Toronto, which is more 8-6, or until the job is done.

Pfft, I work about 11-6. Sometimes from home.

Someweeks I work 11-7, then don't work fridays...

	02-09-2004 08:24									#41
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The first year I was out here and was working from home on contract for my old Vancouver company, I kept similar hours.

Then I thought I would try a working for a local company, and my hours changed drastically. There are slow months where I can do the shifted hours (4x10h, one day off), but more often I'm in from about 8:30 to 5:30 or 6:00, with the peons putting in even longer hours. The compensation however, is the compensation.

	02-09-2004 08:28									#42
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I don't think Calgary has much in the way of IT university programs, but I could be wrong...Asher? If Montreal is your bag, that means McGill, definitely.

The University of Calgary's computer science department is underrated these days.

IBM Canada hires more students from the University of Calgary than any other western university (they only hire more from Waterloo and Toronto), for instance. They also have a world-class Human-Computer Interfaces and Cryptography center, and the study and development of programming languages is emphasized (in terms of linguistics). James Gosling, creator of Java, is an alumnus, for example.

The UofC also consistently makes the finals in the ACM Programming Olympic things. Several thousand schools compete worldwide, and only the top 30 teams go to the finals. This year, the UofC was tied at 15th worldwide (Waterloo and UBC were also 15th, and Queen's was 12th...the highest Canadian uni): http://icpc.baylor.edu/icpc/Finals/finals.html

So yes, the UofC's computer science program is very good. Especially in recent years due to Klein's orgasmic funding of ICT in an effort to "diversify" the Alberta economy.

	02-09-2004 08:35									#43
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Asher, cool - I had no idea.

You reminded me of somewhere nobody had mentioned - Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario. That is a great school in a mid-sized Canadian town (part way between Toronto and Ottawa) that would also meet a number of the criteria.

	02-09-2004 08:40									#44
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Pekka, I'll add my vote to Vancouver.

It's a nice city, and so many people come from abroad who end up staying here.

Don't listen to Asher. He's just bitter about getting stuck in TO.

	02-09-2004 08:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous The only rivals Boston has in colleges are NYC and Chicago, which is saying something for a city of only 500,000.

Ahem. DC is the 2nd biggest college town in the country. Georgetown, George Washington, American, Catholic, Howard, George Mason, Galludet, U of Maryland, etc.

If you like politics, Pekka, this is the spot to be.

Otherwise, I'll cast my vote for Ann Arbor. I grew up in Michigan and its a terrific state. Detroit is hockeytown. The Red Wings are a dominant hockey franchise going back decades. Climate is right, people are nice, etc.

Plus taxes are much lower than Canada.

	02-09-2004 08:43									#46
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Until you have to pay for healthcare.

	02-09-2004 08:48									#47
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quote: What is the general emplyoment situation in Canada?

Cities are good, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal have plenty of employment opportunities. Ottawa as well, though less than the bigger centres.

Since you are in comp sci, I'll let Asher and them go over the options, since that's not my field, and I don't know the employment patterns for programmers.

quote: Is there a future in Canada?

Sure there are opportunities here. Canadians work fewer hours than the Americans, but we don't make quite as much as they do, but we make more than the Europeans.

quote: What kind of taxation there is in Canada compared to the US?

Canada's brackets are quite a bit higher federally than the US. I don't know how that would compare on the level of states, as certain provinces like Alberta are very competitive, and other provinces are not, while some states have higher brackets than others.

BC used to have higher rates, but they are starting to come down now that the budget here is balanced. We're still behind Alberta.

quote: What about the level of salary compared to the US?

You'll make more in the US, than you will here.

	02-09-2004 08:52									#48
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Vancouver's biggest drawback is the cost to living being much higher, with respect to housing.

	02-09-2004 08:58									#49
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If ya like how Vancouver sounds yet want to be paid more ( ), you can go south from there about a couple of hours or so to Seattle.

Unfortunetly I can't recommend much to you because I like it warm and hate the cold .

quote: Until you have to pay for healthcare.

Not if you got a job .

	02-09-2004 09:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: That's carrying the French schtick a bit far isn't it, Lancer? Nah, it just shows those Montrealians are americanized. In France, we crap on each other to cover the stench

	02-09-2004 09:02									#51
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A study last year showed that IT workers make 40% more in the US for an equivalent job in Canada.

Not only this, but you'll likely pay less taxes. Further still, healthcare isn't an issue because the vast majority of IT jobs come with healthcare coverage.

However, most of the IT jobs in the US are in very expensive areas (like Austin and Silicon Valley), which can cost a fortune to live in. That said, Toronto's not cheap. (Markham is).

	02-09-2004 09:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Until you have to pay for healthcare. Not if you got a job .

Unless your company is evil.

	02-09-2004 09:11									#53
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Until you have to pay for healthcare. Not if you got a job . Unless your company is evil.

Or you pause to think that someone is still paying for it.

I was a bit surprised when I looked at tax rates and many provinces compared favourably with most states. Our healthcare is covered in that bill. Yanks are still paying more. Somewhere, someone is paying for it.

	02-09-2004 09:18									#54
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Well nobody ever seems to leave the minneapolis/saint paul region except to get away from cold winters and it matches up with all your listed criteria.

	02-09-2004 09:22									#55
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Asher:

What's the skinny on CompSci at the U of A? I know we have the buildings, but it never seems to get mentioned in your appraisals. Does the quality of instruction just suck or what?

Ah well, at least we have the new Nanotechnology centre (much to the chagrin of the campus even-lefter-than-me-s).

	02-09-2004 09:32									#56
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Lonestar, Collegestation?

Lancer, @ montreal remark. Priceless

cinch, Hey I KNOW Jari Kurri .. well not personally.. but I've been to his hockey school every summer when I was a kid, plus my grandpa knows him somehow as well, not very well but almost personally, engouh to say 'Hi Jari'. So damn well I know him. How they like Esa Tikkanen? I know Tiki a lot better, not personally but.. anyway .. it's so easdy to get close to these stars here in Finland, because we are only 5 million, so, the odds are you're bumping into them all the time.

-40C is kind of cold already though.. Experienced it before, it's kind of _TOO_ cold. As in you need to stay inside or your face drops off .

Imran, Well... Seattle is like the capital of Hippie. I might get tempted to join the police force!

Nice information everyone. I think it's safe to say my location would/will be either northern US or southern Canada.. Isn't Detroit pretty crime ridden though? I always thought it was a place like that.

It will be combination of things how I will then run each city and decide where I live. Most likely I don't want to live in the heart of the city anyway, but a drive away somewhere more peaceful and nice. Except if the city is REALLY nice.

But as far as my transfer year goes, I need to be in high ranked Uni.. no point going to Uni that doesn't rank anywhere in programming related studies, as well, I could just as well go to one that ranks high in that and benefit from it.

I guess I would first relocate to finish my studies in there, and then hopefully get the opportunity to stay and work and live. For that, I can relocate again though. So the Uni won't be deciding factor for the later relocation. Job markets and future job markets are however important and ranks high how I rank the places. Then outdoor activity possibilities, and I do take the local sports team into consideration. I'd like to cheer for pro team, as well as follow fanatically local college team and cheer for them too.

	02-09-2004 09:43									#57
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AFAIK, UBC would qualify for what you want.

	02-09-2004 09:48									#58
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Is the climate of Vancouver like Seattle? If so, then you probably won't get much snow there Pekka, just rain.

And Ann Arbor is far enough away from Detroit to suffer no related crime problems. All the good of Detroit, and none of the bad.

	02-09-2004 09:48									#59
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quote: Well... Seattle is like the capital of Hippie.

Dude, what do you think Vancouver is?

quote: no point going to Uni that doesn't rank anywhere in programming related studies

Boston is considered pretty good for computer stuff. Though Taxachusetts has comparable tax rates to Canada and is full of M*******s .

	02-09-2004 09:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Asher: What's the skinny on CompSci at the U of A? I know we have the buildings, but it never seems to get mentioned in your appraisals. Does the quality of instruction just suck or what?

The UofA is good, too. They just haven't done much with research and specialization like the UofC has done, so while the UofC has world-class facilities in a couple fields, the UofA compsci is more...generic I guess? They do have some cool things with AI going on though.

I'm sure the quality of instruction is fine. I was fortunate enough to have a UofA prof named Dr. Jonathan Shaeffer for a week-long course the other week, and he was the best prof I've ever had. He only teaches two upper-level graduate courses though...