02-09-2004 20:16									#1
	2133 End Turn and 2134 Discussion Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

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	02-09-2004 21:19									#2
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Populations:

G: 10
H: 34
A: 7
M: 8
S: 10


Looks like me moving the scout to greet the MW was a mistake after all... it lost to the MW.

We have a bunch of crawlers on Mt. Drogue now. We could build HGP almost any time now.

Our scouts moved into Money V and Imp Pol, toward the MW. Another one will come out of Mor Vul next turn, to cover SSR. The SC just SW of SSR might need to go east next turn for safety.

Imp Pol and RFR rushed crawlers this tun.


Future plans:

Money V can rush 11 mins of a CP in 2136. Doctor in 2135.

SSR will complete a CP in 2139 without rushing. Doctor in 2137.

Mor Vul can rush 9 mins of a CP in 2135. Doctor in 2134 (next turn).

Imp Pol can rush the last 10 14 mins of a CP in 2137. Doctor in 2135. The crawler coming out of Imp Pol next turn can go to the forest just SW of the base.

RFR can rush 11 or 12 mins of a CP in 2136. Doctor already assigned, but two doctors will be required in 2136. SC goes to (26,18) next turn, then (25,15). The SC currently at (25,15) goes to (29,13) to get two nuts for one turn, then moves on to (29,19) for one or two mins, depending on whether our former survives to finish that forest.

After those CP's finish, I recommend nothing but SC's until we have enough for PTS. We should build HGP ASAP after we found our next base. This may be 2138 (or 2139? it will take some cash) at Imp Pol, after it finishes its CP-- Mor Vul's CP will have plopped down by then.

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Last edited by jtsisyoda on 02-09-2004 at 21:52

	02-09-2004 21:21									#3
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End of turn file...

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	02-09-2004 21:50									#4
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I took my own advice and did one teeny change to the end turn file before sending it on to the Spartans. ZZT was at 10 mins, so I switched it to a crawler. Similarly, I suggest our upcoming new bases start with SC's instead of formers, unless we've already started all the SC's we need for PTS. Former time can be caught up, but only one faction can build the PTS.

	03-09-2004 03:14									#5
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Hmm, the angels have <=7 cities, but had 2 pop waiting to become cities for 3 turns. In a worst possible case scenario, they've had at most 5 cities working on crawlers for the past 4 turns. Therefore, it is not possible for the angels to simulatenously build 6 crawlers for a quick HGP (or WP).

The more pods we see built, the less resources we know that were stuck into CP building. They did not rush the pods. The pods must be not be a high priority now, or the angels are short on moola.

What SP is the Angels going for?

Last edited by arginine on 04-09-2004 at 11:28

	03-09-2004 05:06									#6
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I find our pop slightly worrying, but I agree that we really need HGP+PTS. Once we get those we can start expanding again.

-- CTO #endgame

	03-09-2004 19:44									#7
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since they are slighty behind on tech they have VW, ME and PTS I think, and WP probably too

to take care of the mindworm problem, i think the 3res armor would be good for our garrissons, its almost in the beeline for the PEG what also is needed if we go for economic vic

Greetz

btw it has almost been a month since the last post of chaunk, somebody has an idea what happened?

	03-09-2004 20:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- since they are slighty behind on tech they have VW, ME and PTS I think, and WP probably too

There aren't any SP listed as built on the screens though, are there? There shouldn't be any built by anyone.

	03-09-2004 20:23									#9
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Have no idea what became of Chaunk, if jtisyoda wants to "challange" him for the CEO position it shoud be a bloodless "corporate take over" so to say.

If I was the Angels I would be working to snag SOME project after we finish our first. Presuming we get HGP they would try for PTS, if we get both then they will probly go WP. We cant possibly get all 3 of them and shouldnt even try. We want to grow explosivly as soon a PTS is up and running. Also it might be wise to throw Yang another bone to chew on soon we dont want him attacking right when were trying to grow.

I will try to have a look at the turn and come up with a definitive HGP scedual and perhaps even plan it out all the way to PTS if I have the time (dont expect any Kody's).

EDIT: You weren't gone that long Archaic (and welcome back)
He just ment potentialy Buildabule projects, as you said no one has built any real projects yet.

	03-09-2004 23:30									#10
	Is it possible to instabuild 2 SPs? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Following are a few things that I am thinking about. I have not made my mind up yet how we should proceed, but here are the questions I am thinking about:


How many crawlers will we need to build each SP?

I note that once we get HGP built RFR gets to use both its workers, and City of ZZT gets to use its worker, currently a doctor (on the monolith) - this is worth at least the production of two crawlers.

I know we would like to keep the crawlers around as long as possible to help with the building of the CP and more crawlers. The longer we hold off instabuilding an SP the more turns we we benefit from the mineral production of the crawlers (which help build more crawlers).

The longer we wait the greater the chance of losing an SP to another faction.

The sooner we get an SP the sooner we start getting benefits from it.

Do we instabuild the HGP, after we finish the CP before they found a base (getting maybe one turn of mineral production more out of them towards new crawlers)?

Then, build the PTS as soon as possible?


Mead

	04-09-2004 10:40									#11
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We will have 8 SCs by next turn...

A CP costs as much as a crawler, and we will be building 5 of those over the next 6 turns... You only need 10 crawlers in order to build the PTS. We will have 8 next turn.

I would suggest a possible gamble:

We try to rapidly build the PTS in 3-4 turns with the new crawlers... With the enhanced production from our enlarged population ~7 bases making 5,6 mins each, we could get enough crawlers in ~6 turns to make the HGP.

This could work out if the Angels are not researching biogenics right now, or would prefer a different SP over the HGP. Hopefully they want the WP more than the HGP. The HGP isn't one of the best SPs. The main reason we want it is we need it if we want to pop boom with ~30 cities.

Last edited by arginine on 04-09-2004 at 11:23

	04-09-2004 10:59									#12
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RFR actually has two drones, so HGP only helps RFR if it goes back to one pop (it will soon)... with two pop and HGP it'll still need a doctor. But, yeah, ZZT and other bases at size one, including the next five new bases, will be able to use their worker.

"Cheap" SP's like HGP, ME, and WP require 6 crawlers, plus 18 minerals. Expensive ones like VW and PTS require an even 10 crawlers.

	04-09-2004 11:19									#13
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To build the PTS we need 10 crawlers. For the HGP we can use 6 crawlers, provided the base building the HGP has already accumulated 2 rows of minerals.

When to cash the crawlers to build a SP in a multiplayer game is a big question which I know little about. That topic has been discussed in some older threads outside of this private forum (ironically, some of the people who gave advice in those threads are our opponents)

Last edited by arginine on 04-09-2004 at 11:29

	04-09-2004 11:40									#14
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Assuming the angels devoted 5 bases to crawlers starting in 2130, with 3 mins prod each. I assume they rush build at 24 mins. First round of crawlers at ~8 turns. The crawlers go to forest and increase prod to 5 mins. ~5 turns needed to build the next round of crawlers... That would give them PTS by 2143. That is a rough estimate. With more rush building, better bases and general tweaks it could be a few turns earlier.

The WP or HGP would only need 2 extra crawlers in addition to the 5, and they could be rushed, so 2138 would be more likely for those projects.

	04-09-2004 14:03									#15
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What's our current level of cashflow? Upgrading crawlers isn't disallowed in this game, is it?

	04-09-2004 22:42									#16
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Arginine's estimations for the Angels might be right.

I was recommending HGP in 2139, then PTS ASAP after the next five CP's. I estimate early 40's for that. HGP in my mind is more critical to our long-term success than PTS. OTH, we could consider PTS first as arginine suggests... I haven't worked out any numbers for how long it would take. I guess if we built PTS after the CP's come out, our core cities would still all be at three pop, same as the other plan. The possible downside is the hefty investment we'd have to make in psych.

Income: 26ec/turn. I think we're better off just rushing more crawlers, rather than saving for upgrades.

The Scout out of Mor Vul needs to be rehomed to SSR next turn, so Mor Vul can rush the CP in 2135.

	04-09-2004 23:27									#17
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We'd have to go with 40-50% psych if we built PTS first and want all of our citizens content. We could do 20% psych, with a doctor at ZZT, but RFR would starve to two pop. RFR doesn't have enough 2-nut squares to support two workers and a doctor. So 20% psych would save about two energy per base at the cost of one lousy worker working at best a 1-1-1 at RFR. The 20% psych would then mostly be covered by the +1 energy/square of the two extra workers per base. High energy bases like Mor Ind would lose a little more, though. The upside is about +2 mins per base from extra workers. With only seven cities (or maybe eight by the time PTS is done), that actually doesn't make up for the ten crawlers we used to build PTS. OTH, we'd lose less than if we used six crawlers toward building HGP first. Another thing to consider is the CP out of Mor Vul creating probably two b-drones, requiring 40% psych after all. So it looks to me like doing PTS first gains 12 minerals but loses maybe 20 energy to psych. Plus, we lose some of the 12 minerals when we build CP's in Money V, Imp Pol, and SSR, going to 2 pop, so it's probably more like 9 minerals vs. 20 energy.

Sometimes I use a general guideline of 2.25 energy = 1 min, because that's a rough average rush cost. However, that can be misleading, because energy gives you the flexibility to invest in key places. If used to speed something like a crawler, you get a jump-start on gaining more resources. It's the same (math-ish) concept as team-terraforming. If you have four formers build four forests separately, they finish all four at the same time as if they worked in a team to do each forest in turn; however, the team makes the first forest available much sooner, the second forest available sooner also, etc. It's also the same reason you want to rush one crawler per turn instead of saving up for all three later on. PRINCIPLE: Don't lock up "potential energy" by having a lot of minerals in the box, or a lot of formers just starting-- convert that potential into something tangible ASAP.

HGP before PTS is more true to this principle, IMO, in this case.

PTS first guarantees PTS for the rest of the game. However, then HGP is vulnerable. The Angels just might snag it, knowing how important it is to GA booming, and knowing from the mini-game how powerful the HGP/PTS combo is. I'd rather have HGP than PTS with Morgan.

	05-09-2004 05:30									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I assumed we'd have 7 bases, and thus need only 20% psych. The extra ~3 energy per base would take care of the 20% psych. The extra pop would bring in an additional 3 mins per base, but we'd lose the 10 crawlers. 21 mins gained vs 20 mins lost.

In other words, the PTS's effects would cancel out the loss of the crawlers. My gamble would work IF the angels are NOT researching biogenics right not, AND we could build the HGP faster than they can research biogenics.

Last edited by arginine on 05-09-2004 at 05:37

	05-09-2004 05:31									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda *** PTS first guarantees PTS for the rest of the game. However, then HGP is vulnerable. The Angels just might snag it, knowing how important it is to GA booming, and knowing from the mini-game how powerful the HGP/PTS combo is. I'd rather have HGP than PTS with Morgan.

Okay, so it looks like we are debating whether to build the PTS or HGP first.

I agree that the HGP is more important. I agree we should go for it first.

My question is how long do we wait before we build it. As I understand it, we could use up all our crawlers build it in the next turn or two. If we delay there is a chance that the DA (or someone else perhaps) could build it before us.

If we wait about four turns then we will have the mineral production out of the crawlers to help us make the CPs and more crawlers for the PTS and general use.

If the DA grabs the HGP then we should get the PTS (and vice versa). By waiting to build the HGP until later we stand a better chance of getting both SPs. I suggest we wait until just before we plant new bases before we insta-build HGP. Then we devote every base to crawlers to try to get the PTS.


It's a gamble, but one worth taking.


Mead

	05-09-2004 05:50									#20
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I was proposing that we grab the PTS, which the angels can build and then rush to build HGP before the angels could research it. Since we don't know the angel's tech rate that would be quite risky. The gaians will have IA too soon.

	05-09-2004 07:10									#21
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HGP first, definitely. Perhaps have a look at the current minigame where the Angels' expansion process is severely hampered by b-drones. The PTS wouldn't really help there since new bases would be drone-doctor-starved in a few turns anyway.

When to build it is a more difficult question. I think a thin expansion is safer so that would be:
- Build the HGP ASAP by cashing in all crawlers ASAP (6 or 7 crawlers, is the HGP 200 minerals or 180 (10% Industry discount from Wealth)?)
- Thin expansion with colony pods, putting the HGP to best use
- Every base builds crawlers, especially from the first ten minerals
- Build the PTS with these crawlers ASAP and build formers afterwards with the newly gained industrial might.
- Until then we should be able to switch to Dem and kill a few b-drones.

	05-09-2004 10:23									#22
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The idea of the gamble was that we might be able to get both. Since we don't know enough about the angels, the gamble would be very risky. The current plan is to wait as long as possible before we have to cash the crawlers for HGP, build 5 CPs over the next 7 turns and build more crawlers with excess capacity.

What is thin expansion? I am guessing it is lots of small cities instead of a few bigger ones. I am for that. Especially once we get PEG to really use our 6 energy in the base square. I forsee us using the money to finance development of a few large bases at a time.

I am expecting the angels to get the PTS. :P

With the HGP we can have an infininte number of foreign troops and bases and never get drones in size 1 bases. I'd prefer a police state (for support reasons) if the efficiency is not too bad... At least until bioengineering.

	05-09-2004 20:19									#23
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My 2 cents, throw econ to 100%, build those wonders asap.

	05-09-2004 22:51									#24
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Thin expansion is expanding before doing stuff like infrastructure or garrisons. We've definitely paused our thin expansion, but after some crawlers, we can start up again, no problem.

Increasing our econ percentage should definitely be considered. It will obviously delay the availability of probe foils, though. I bet the Spartans are going for Flex, too, since they aren't progressing toward IA. Maybe they hope to steal IA. We should build a probe garrison at RFR at some point... exactly when is the tricky question.

	06-09-2004 00:01									#25
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Can't open the turn (Forgot the password. ^^;; PM choudai?), but from the sounds of things here, I'd have to support the HGP. Its importance for GA booming, especially with Morgan's lower hab limits, is too important to miss. PTS is great, yes, but seriously now, I'm doubting if we have enough space in which to use it, given the relative closeness of the Hive. Fu

To be honest, I don't think the PTS is in any danger of being snatched either. Biogenics is a 1st level tech, Ind. Auto a 3rd. Do we know when the other factions got Ind. Auto, if at all yet? Do you think anyone, with the exception of maybe the Angels (I'm out of the loop, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), would even potentially be deploying crawlers at the levels we are yet?

	06-09-2004 02:38									#26
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Our password is "marketing". There's a link to it in our topped thread, for future reference.

The Angels got IA in 2130. So far they're the only other faction to get it. From their population numbers, it looks like they built two CP's recently. So they could potentially have some other bases building crawlers. They're almost certainly behind us on crawlers, but since we're about to do a bunch of CP's, they might have enough to build one SP before we can build two SP's.

I don't get the "having enough space" objection to the PTS. It would help a lot even if we stopped at 12 bases.

	06-09-2004 03:04									#27
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We could delay the CP's at Mor Vul, SSR, Money V, and Imp Pol, until after we have enough crawlers for PTS and HGP. Then we build the CP's, then we build the SP's immediately after that. This is also a bit of a gamble, because it puts our horizontal growth behind everybody else for quite a while. It might be our best chance at the HGP/PTS combo, and if we get them, our horizontal and vertical growth will catch up quickly. But if we miss one or the other, we'd have the worst of all worlds-- slow horizontal growth, and only one SP. I don't think I like this option, but I'll put it out there for input.

Mor Vul is scheduled to produce a CP in 2135, and it would found a base in 2137 or possibly 2138. The original plan was to build HGP in Imp Pol circa 2139... so for a couple years before that we might need to go 20% psych. The alternative would be to delay Mor Vul's CP until after HGP.

I don't have any interest in permanently ousting Chaunk. I've had to delay playing some of my favorite PBEM's in order to play these turns, and would welcome Chaunk's return as CEO.

	06-09-2004 04:13									#28
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One of the benefits of the PTS, is one less drone in cities size 3 or smaller.

Our 8 crawlers will produce 16 mins / turn. Our 7 bases will produce ~ 18 mins / turn. Our income at 50% econ is 26 energy / turn or about 10 mins / turn. That means we produce about 43 mins / turn.

We will have to make 8 crawlers and 2 rows of mins to have enough for both projects. 9 mins / row * ( 3 * 8 + 2 ) = 234 mins.

So, in theory our bases prduce enough to make enough mins in 6 turns. The problem is once we build a SP, we lose 14 mins / turn.

If we slow down our expansion for crawlers and miss a SP, we'll have the extra crawlers to help rush the CPs. We can accomidate 2 people in our bases with 20% psych. 20% psych & 40% econ will bring in 22 energy / turn. It is a shame we don't have extra forest near most our bases to make the most of our people :P

What concerns me is that we have not figured in the cash reserves of the other factions. We've been burning through ours quickly. If the other factions could save theirs up for when they get IA and rush build the crawlers, they will get the SPs faster than we expected.

Last edited by arginine on 06-09-2004 at 04:18

	06-09-2004 06:41									#29
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The other factions most probably haven't much cash anyway, at least from regular sources. The Gaians (and to a lesser extent, the Spartans) might have gotten some from pod pops, the Angels most probably didn't.

When they do the Builder's game, they aren't exploring that much and probe teams get killed quickly by the first worm pop. The Gaians' worms aren't attacked by native worms and the Spartans' rovers are a good match for them.

I imagine the Angels having the same discussion, especially after the minigame. I did stop expansion at 7 bases, built crawlers, kept 2 on permanent work, built the HGP from newly produced crawlers and cashed every crawler in for the PTS. Only after that, I went on expanding horizontally again.

Another point which hasn't been mentioned in regard to "snatching" is that HGP is 200 minerals and PTS is 300. If the Angels have IA only since 2130 and we don't cash in all crawlers for the HGP but keep 2 of them per base to make even more crawlers for the PTS, we might well get both SPs.

A PTS 1.5 times the size of a HGP isn't a quick "snatch" but requires significantly more crawlers. A WP is something that can be "snatched" quickly but not a PTS (or a PEG for that matter).

I would try the tactic from the minigame again (that one jtsisyoda doesn't like too much), and mainly because of our superior cash position. We can afford to rush significantly more crawlers than the Angels despite they're running FM/Wealth, too and that's because we are further advanced on the "mineral curve".

	06-09-2004 18:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by AndiD The other factions most probably haven't much cash anyway, at least from regular sources. The Gaians (and to a lesser extent, the Spartans) might have gotten some from pod pops, the Angels most probably didn't. ***

True

quote: Another point which hasn't been mentioned in regard to "snatching" is that HGP is 200 minerals and PTS is 300. If the Angels have IA only since 2130 and we don't cash in all crawlers for the HGP but keep 2 of them per base to make even more crawlers for the PTS, we might well get both SPs.

I agree. We should try to get both SPs.
The way we do this by holding off, for as long as we feel prudent, on insta-building the HGP (it does not have to be a firm rule of keeping 2 crawlers per base). If we cash in all of our crawlers now (or the following turn), that will cripple our mineral production for about 8-10 years. By holding off on cashing the same number in for 3-4 years we stand a better chance of having built both the HGP and PTS, as well as still having crawers around to give us the mineral production we need to keep up with the game.

quote: I would try the tactic from the minigame again (that one jtsisyoda doesn't like too much), and mainly because of our superior cash position. We can afford to rush significantly more crawlers than the Angels despite they're running FM/Wealth, too and that's because we are further advanced on the "mineral curve".

Yes, we are ahead on the mineral curve. We should be able to build the HGP and remain ahead in the mineral curve, if we don't cripple ourselves by rushing too soon.


Mead