03-09-2004 10:10									#1
	A Captured City - How to prevent Culturely Losing it? Increase the size of your Attachments

A CAPTURED CITY
AT WAR WITH ITS FORMER MASTERS
HUGE GARRISON OF TROOPS IN ITS WALLS
NEW MASTERS QUELL RESISTANCE
CITY IS CULTURALLY LOST TO ENEMY

How do I prevent this situation. I captured a city. It was a relatively large one, it was close to his capital. I moved an absolute immense horde of troops into the city. All resisters were brought to me on silver plates. Why is it that the city returns (itself ) to my enemy, and all my army is lost with it.

Side Question: What of all my men? Do they "JOIN" the enemy? TREASON!? Or do they just Pooff disappear?

I MUST know how to prevent this from the future. So please. Help me good Warriors of Apolyton! But seriously, I need to prevent this disgusting situation from arising again. Thank you.

	03-09-2004 11:34									#2
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The troops disappear, sort of executed.

In a sense you can never really prevent it, unless you turn that feature off during the game settup.

There is a tool called the flip calculator that will tell you how many troops are needed in a given situation.

I can't remember if it is on poly, but it is on CFC.

A few aids are to cut roads to the capitol, place troops on tiles that are in the cities cultural borders. Rush temples and libs and have a connection to your capitol.

This can be an airport/harbor or road.

I also rush workers or settlers from the city to shrink it down and off course place all or nearly all citizens on specialist work to starve them down.

	03-09-2004 15:05									#3
	Re: A Captured City - How to prevent Culturely Losing it? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by theDragon I MUST know how to prevent this from the future. So please. Help me good Warriors of Apolyton! But seriously, I need to prevent this disgusting situation from arising again. Thank you.

What vmxa1 said.

Or if you're playing one of the expansion packs Play the World or Conquests (and not plain Civ3), you can turn cultural conversions off in the game setup and be done with it without hassle.

	03-09-2004 17:28									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Someone over at CFC said starving foreign citizens costs you AI attitude, much like razing a city or disbanding their workers. If that's true then maybe razing makes more sense for non-wonder cities. At least that way you keep some free workers in the deal.

	03-09-2004 19:06									#5
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 cut roads to the capitol Rush temples and libs and have a connection to your capitol.

I have found these to be the two most effective methods. Immediately severing the roads to the enemy capital, IMO, drastically reduces the chances of a cultural conversion. Rushing a temple or library (which will add your culture to the city) virtually eliminates the chances of cultural conversion.

	03-09-2004 19:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Someone over at CFC said starving foreign citizens costs you AI attitude, much like razing a city or disbanding their workers. If that's true then maybe razing makes more sense for non-wonder cities. At least that way you keep some free workers in the deal.

While this may be true, it is immaterial. At least to me, because by the time you are capturing and trying to hold metros, you are into the furious attitude to stay.

So there is no need to be concerned about how you affect their attitude towards you.

This may be worth thinking about early in the game, but not in the modern age.

	03-09-2004 21:47									#7
	Re: Re: A Captured City - How to prevent Culturely Losing it? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Or if you're playing one of the expansion packs Play the World or Conquests (and not plain Civ3), you can turn cultural conversions off in the game setup and be done with it without hassle.

Is this on as a default setting?

Does anybody know where can I find this flip calcuator?

I was wondering how do I know how many troops I need to leave in a captured city to suppress resistors - I don't want to tie down any more troops than neccessary.

	03-09-2004 22:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 While this may be true, it is immaterial. At least to me, because by the time you are capturing and trying to hold metros, you are into the furious attitude to stay.

However it is quite an issue with scenarios. I'm playing Rise of Rome as Rome and would dearly love to raze or at least starve all of Carthage down to nothing. Rome is not in a commanding military situation early in the scenario. You are surrounded by civs on all sides. I can't afford an AI dogpile just because it is convenient for me to wipe all Carthaginians off the map.

	04-09-2004 00:12									#9
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There ought to be some absolute number of troops which would 100% prevent flipping. Or atleast a proper fight between the rebels and you troops. We're at war, martial law is at place, dammit! My troops sleep and get their throats slit. Whole 6th Army never got to Stalingrad, because Kiev flipped...

About Carthago...

	04-09-2004 00:13									#10
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Flip calc:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=53157

Yes culture flip is on by default.

	04-09-2004 02:02									#11
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vmxa1 - much appreciated

	04-09-2004 04:22									#12
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Cool, we aim to please.

	04-09-2004 12:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I also rush workers or settlers from the city to shrink it down and off course place all or nearly all citizens on specialist work to starve them down.

thats so evil, can i use it

	04-09-2004 21:09									#14
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Sure and you can rush those items, even when they are in resistance. Just use structures and units. Well you need recycle to get shields from structures, but it is great to use a factory to rush a temple in some far flung city.

You stop the pollution it was causing, stop the maint and gain something.

	16-09-2004 14:10									#15
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Enoug troops *will* prevent a flip. You may need silly amounts of them though. Often I raze just to avoid the hassle of preventing/dealing with flips.

BTW, the troops that disappear during a flip is my single biggest complain about civ3. If I could get one thing fixed(and one thing only) in a patch, that would be it. The way slaves revolt in ctp is a good example on how it could be done.

	16-09-2004 18:16									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Get out of that silly democrazy/republic and choose a real govt that can POP RUSH!

-4 citizens, +1 temple... Who gives a damn how happy they are? Besides, those pop rushing govt's have lots of MP's. You're troops may as well shut the bastards up while they are preventing the flip.

DRAFTING is always fun as well. -pop, +troops. Play that formula to your advantage.

Starving takes too long, I want those citizens gone NOW!

So, I attack a size 15, size 14 upon capture, size 12 by end of resistance due to starvation, THAT TURN: - 2 (or more) to drafting, -2-4 for temple (rel/non), poof size 6-8 city that's allot less likely to flip.

Take that, you food navi's, I got your 'pop is power' right here.

(This is assuming a remote city that's all but worthless in terms of production. All cities of production value should be conquered before the culture formula becomes an issue.)

Attacking a size 20+? So you pop a colliseum instead of a temple...

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 16-09-2004 at 18:30

	18-09-2004 20:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 A few aids are to cut roads to the capitol, place troops on tiles that are in the cities cultural borders. Rush temples and libs and have a connection to your capitol. This can be an airport/harbor or road. I also rush workers or settlers from the city to shrink it down and off course place all or nearly all citizens on specialist work to starve them down.

Does cutting the road to AI capital help? It certainly makes sense. I wonder if the makers of this culture flip calculator have included this into their calcs. Also, does it work having garrisoned units occupy city tiles other than the city itself? I thought they had to be in the city.

What type of garrisoned units should be used? For example, do musketman, cavalry and canon have the same effect?

I usually starve them down and build temple/library or raze them, whichever makes more sense.

If I decide to keep the city and end up losing a sizable army inside the city to a culture flip, I may just reload and keep my units just outside the city, so that I can recapture after it flips. I know that's cheating, but it's good gameplay I'm interested in.

Someone else mentioned this already, but the way CTP handled this was much better. I don't mind a battle with revolters, in fact I might enjoy it, but to have them vanish like that is unacceptable to me.

	18-09-2004 21:57									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka II What type of garrisoned units should be used? For example, do musketman, cavalry and canon have the same effect?...

Any units that can be used as military police will do.

quote: ...Also, does it work having garrisoned units occupy city tiles other than the city itself? I thought they had to be in the city...

One of the values in the formula is 'territory under foreign control'. Any of the 20 tiles surrounding your city that is either within the enemys cultural borders or held by one of his units is considered under foreign control.

By placing units outside the city you prevent the enemy getting control over 'your' territory. By placing units on *his* territory(but still among those 20 tiles) those tiles get counted as *your* tiles. Units take precedence over cultural ownership

	18-09-2004 22:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bongo By placing units outside the city you prevent the enemy getting control over 'your' territory. By placing units on *his* territory(but still among those 20 tiles) those tiles get counted as *your* tiles. Units take precedence over cultural ownership

I will try next time having my army spread over enemy tiles within the surrounding city tiles.

I think that the culture flipping feature was well intended, but they didn't get it quite right for gameplay. Fighting someone with strong culture is hard, so razing or starving is usually the best. One problem with starving is the city manager seems to correct for my conversion of everyone to entertainers every turn. Does disabling the manager prevent this?

	20-09-2004 00:37									#20
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The loss of citizens due to starvation always calls the attention of the governour, he will try to rearrange them to maximize food without rioting. To my knowledge this function can't be turned off.

	20-09-2004 01:54									#21
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Would having 4 armies in 4 squares be as effective as 20 units in 20 squares?

	20-09-2004 02:27									#22
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Nope, but having them inside the city would be as effective as having 20 units there.

	20-09-2004 04:22									#23
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Lately, I plan ahead for city razing and have an equal number of settlers in the build cue, so that I can rebuild on the same or next turn. But that is in the mid game or after when the culture borders are closed and production is in high gear.

It would be nice if there was a work around strategy to prevent razing cities. It hurts when they have wonders, but sometimes there is no other option, such as overwhelming enemy culture.