17-10-1999 03:32									#1
	Wonders and their wanna-bes Full PM-box? Change here!

First off I’d like to state my position on Wonders. I think the original 7 Wonders shouldbe included somehow in the game. And the Great Wall of China isnt one. Any civ shouldbe able to produce a massive wall across the countryside.

~A Wonder is something that IS BUILT, not accomplished or funded. It should be
something that was considered a great feat at the time it was done. But saying that, the
Great Wall was a great feat too.

~There should not be nearly as many Wonders as there was in CivII.

~Wonders should generally benefit education, health, trade, happiness, science, military
morale, military training and such.

~It should never eliminate the need for certain city improvement within each city.

~There should be a medium between city improvement and Wonders. Something maybe
called civ improvements. These should cost money(and plenty of it, not production.
Something each civ can build only one of.

~Example from civII: Each civ must fund the Manhatten project(or something like it) before producing Nuclear weopons. Anyone should be able to produce a Great Wall across their countryside. Each civ should be able to fund a trip arould the world--Darwins Voyage.
And if there is some sort of space exporation, each civ needs to fund the Apollo
program(or something like it) to benefit from it. And just this week China announce they
were sending a man into space.

~Wonders and “Civ improvements” that have to do with the ocean(Lighthouse, Darwins
Voyage, Mgellans Expedition) would have to be built in providences that have access to
the ocean.

~There should be more “Civ improvements” than Wonders.

~Once you’ve started building a Wonder you cannot change it to another. If you do you
lose all production. (You think that once all but the top ten rows of the pyramids were
done you could have the colossus build the next year?)

~You can, however, halt the production for a certain number of turns without penlty. If you have half the pyramids done and decide to halt it because the city is threatend, you still have half the pyramids done when you comeback, right? After the time period is up(you should be warned too) you lose all production. And the Wonder is now availible to all other civs(who have the tech of course.)

~This idea should apply to city improvements too. Except you wont have a time limit to
continue production. If I have half a library done and decide to build a University, I build the University from scratch, and finish the library from where I left it. I do realize that a lot of this maybe done by the AI, but I still had to say it.

~This would eliminate the cheats of building a Wonder just to get the prodction to build
another Wonder of a tech the civ knows nothing of.

~I dont consider any of the Wonders from CTP to be actual Wonders and dont think any
should be. However, some could be possible be “Civ improvements.”

I'd sure like to hear some feedback(praise or critize) on this.
Daniel

	17-10-1999 06:00									#2
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Daniel:

Sounds generally reasonable to me... Provinces in Clash don't have monolitic improvements, things can be built gradually. I don't have any big objection to wonders in general. Just 'magical' ones like Leo's. Your civ-level wonders sound ok. They could either be a great feature or just clutter up the game... I'm not sure about my opinion as to which of the two it'll be yet

	09-12-1999 01:09									#3
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A forgotten thread, it seems.

I'd like to give it new life first summarizing what I've found about wonders in clash forums. It's not much, though:

1. Clash team is not sure yet about including wonders.
2. Wonders shouldn't be as much as in civ2
3. Ws should be buildings and not projects/achievments like Leo's.
4. They may have an effect on national pride, happiness and trade.
5. Clash economic model works not with particular buildings, but with "an infrastructure" level.
6. The player should be able to customize wonder's effects rather than choosing a wonder with some predefined effect.
7. Some players like wonders from world history to be explicitly included, while others prefer "abstract" wonders.
8. Construction of wonders could be halted in order to solve present problems and then continue building them without losing what has been already made.
9. Changing wonders while being built seems ugly and non-realistic.
10. Manurein in his social model gives us his view on wonders:

The idea is to allow the ruler to build " special " structures, that are mainly real buildings (no " Cure for Cancer " wonder), that are not forecasted by the game but rather shaped by the player, and that effects on different models of Clash depending on the type of structure that is built ; in no way, a wonder is unique.
Actually, a wonder is an architectural structure that building is decided by the ruler (and the economic model), and that is a really special construction. It takes extra resources to be built, but one it is built it appears on the map, and it gives advantages to its owner. There may be many kinds of wonders. For example, it may be a great temple. The size of the temple is decided by the ruler (and thus the extra resources it requires, eventually the time it takes to be built). Once it is built, the people will enjoy it, giving more power to the RC, giving more faith to the people. Also, the province that holds it will see its rate for purpose of migration increase. Over time, the effect of a wonder may lower (when the people are less influenced by religion, the great temple will be of less importance) ; also, a wonder may have economic effects, such as favoring tourism in this province. There may also be another effect : if there is a tech called " archeology ", then an ancient wonder that has no more effect could be rediscovered and generate trade in modern times, through tourism. [...]


That's all I've found about Ws. My own opinion goes in the next post.

Rodrigo

	09-12-1999 01:37									#4
	Got spare money?

Hi Rodrigo:

Thanks for taking this on

I would contest the point about how wonders Must be buildings. Any Achievement should do IMO. Manhattan Project and Cure for Cancer are Excellent choices in my view.

I think wonders should not have their results through Magic like Leo's in Civ2. Or, as you say be disproportionately powerful If only one civ could have 'em.

Other than that, the stuff in the summary isn't unreasonable, IMO. Waiting to hear your take on it

	09-12-1999 01:53									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My view of WW:
1)WW are buildings beyond what we're used to. Magnificent structures that most of all, amaze us for their greatness and beaty. Also, they (or some of them, really) had some particular use in the past, like the Oracle in Greece. So, you have to model both, attractivness and use of it.
2)Ws are just the extreme case of something else, like a temple in the case of the Oracle. There were a lot of oracles in greece, but only one qualified for wonder of the world, because of greatness and importance. Or the pyramids. There are a lot of pyramids in egypt for they were royal tombs, but only 3 are THE pyramids.
3)About attractivness, let's take FE present Paris. It holds no wonder, but it's considered one of the most beatiful cities in the world attracting $$$ in tourism and with a powerful effect on inmigration. It'd be fair to compare Paris to ancient Babylon with its hanging gardens, since the effect is much the same: a beatiful place to live, encourgaing national pride, happiness and trade (since inmigration makes it a big market, an then a profitable one).

My proposal for WW:
In mark's econ model the people as well as the ruler invest in some areas like agriculture. Suppose your civ has spent some great amount of $ in one of these areas. If a certain (high) limit has been reached, you earn a world wonder and it's specific to the area. So, if a lot of money have been spent on temples, you earn the oracle, FE. At that moment, the city or province where it has been "built" gains a bonus for inmigration (at the migration model) and a bonus for religous happiness (social model). The trade bonus comes (or eventually will come) alone since migration will bring it and happiness could be related to people's productivity. Notice that earning a wonder may be seeked by the ruler just spending lots of money in the area. Notice too that this method helps modeling the effect of stopping wonder construction for the moment and continue it later since no waste of $ takes place at each area. Also, there's no need of wonder being a real historic one and this can be left as an option to some players. Also, wonders are no longer unique. A religious wonder may exist in a civ, but other can do the same. Notice as well that ruler's choice of area to invest in is in fact a choice of what kind of wonder you want and the type of effects it'll bring.
It'd be necessary to include an investment area such as "city beautification" where wonders like HG can exist. On the other side, some areas won't never lead to a wonder, like "fishing".

The main problem I see in the above proposal is that the normal expendeture on each area will make every province have a wonder, eventually. To solve this, it'd be maybe useful to check "investment surplus", like "how much is needed and how much is spent".

Rodrigo

	09-12-1999 01:54									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My view of WW:
1)WW are buildings beyond what we're used to. Magnificent structures that most of all, amaze us for their greatness and beaty. Also, they (or some of them, really) had some particular use in the past, like the Oracle in Greece. So, you have to model both, attractivness and use of it.
2)Ws are just the extreme case of something else, like a temple in the case of the Oracle. There were a lot of oracles in greece, but only one qualified for wonder of the world, because of greatness and importance. Or the pyramids. There are a lot of pyramids in egypt for they were royal tombs, but only 3 are THE pyramids.
3)About attractivness, let's take FE present Paris. It holds no wonder, but it's considered one of the most beatiful cities in the world attracting $$$ in tourism and with a powerful effect on inmigration. It'd be fair to compare Paris to ancient Babylon with its hanging gardens, since the effect is much the same: a beatiful place to live, encourgaing national pride, happiness and trade (since inmigration makes it a big market, an then a profitable one).

My proposal for WW:
In mark's econ model the people as well as the ruler invest in some areas like agriculture. Suppose your civ has spent some great amount of $ in one of these areas. If a certain (high) limit has been reached, you earn a world wonder and it's specific to the area. So, if a lot of money have been spent on temples, you earn the oracle, FE. At that moment, the city or province where it has been "built" gains a bonus for inmigration (at the migration model) and a bonus for religous happiness (social model). The trade bonus comes (or eventually will come) alone since migration will bring it and happiness could be related to people's productivity. Notice that earning a wonder may be seeked by the ruler just spending lots of money in the area. Notice too that this method helps modeling the effect of stopping wonder construction for the moment and continue it later since no waste of $ takes place at each area. Also, there's no need of wonder being a real historic one and this can be left as an option to some players. Also, wonders are no longer unique. A religious wonder may exist in a civ, but other can do the same. Notice as well that ruler's choice of area to invest in is in fact a choice of what kind of wonder you want and the type of effects it'll bring.
It'd be necessary to include an investment area such as "city beautification" where wonders like HG can exist. On the other side, some areas won't never lead to a wonder, like "fishing".

The main problem I see in the above proposal is that the normal expendeture on each area will make every province have a wonder, eventually. To solve this, it'd be maybe useful to check "investment surplus", like "how much is needed and how much is spent".

Rodrigo

	09-12-1999 03:56									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Firstly I personally would say that Paris does have a wonder that is the 'Eiffel Tower'

Secondly I would agree with what Mark said, that projects such as the cure for cancer that would be major achievements should be modeled as some kind of wonder.

	09-12-1999 04:18									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

The only 2 i think from modern times that would make it would be the manhatton project and apollo program. The reason why is because these had vast impacts and/or achievements. With the MP we created a the first city destroyer weapon and could harness the power of the atom. With the Apollo program we sent the first person to another celestial object and returned him safely home (Actually though i'd prob list the russian achievement of sending the first man in space and returning them home safely before the apollo program). The cure for cancer really doesn't say much since its only 1 type of disease (in general) and it isn't the first disease we've wiped out (smallpox was, but u don't see a wonder for that?)

	09-12-1999 05:10									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd like to amplify one thing Rodrigo said...
That a civ that goes further than usual in a particular area could qualify for a wonder. I think anything we can do that will turn W building into a Race will get the adrenaline flowing for the player! This came up on the Old Forum too. First one to reach a certain threshold either in 'building' or 'education' or 'high culture' or that was 'best in the world' at something could qualify. Some would be permanent (or last a long time) others, like best in education, could be transitory if the civ were overtaken by another. Initially these prizes would be handed out for each area of the world, but when things become truly global the competition would be global also.

You can see that OLD wonders discussion if you go to the web site, follow Forums - Old Forum and scroll about 1/2 way down the page. The discussion is part of the thread "Victory Conditions?"

We Need Factors to give Clash that Just ONE More Turn draw. I think this idea if well-done can be a Big one of these.


LGJ:

Ok, good point on Cure for Cancer, hasn't been done Anyway

	09-12-1999 10:01									#10
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First off, one should not benefit from anothers achievement. This was a major mistake in civII. I build the Manhatten project and everyone can now build nukes.
?????????
How'd they get the tech to build nukes? Same with the Apollo program. I alone should benefit from it if I were fortunate enough to build it first.

These 2(Man. Project and Apollo Prog.), and others which are of no significants right now, should be in another class. Something each civ can build only one of.

You can have a seperate group of achievements listed out for each civ to achieve. These would not be neccessary for the civ too build, but act as an enhancer to a specific field of the game.

And as for earning wonders, that sounds OK to me. But it sounds like it may get too cluttered or overused. Too many repeats possibly. unless you put limits on them or something.

Daniel

	09-12-1999 10:13									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

About projects (modern civ2 wonders): I don't see them as being wonders since they're only tech advances. We could discuss hours about what types of adv are real turning points and could deserve to be called wonders. Also, I think an attrb of wonders is that they're geo-specific, located at a place, so you must capture the city where the wonder is to have it. Techs have the attrb of being transferible, so if you made it to the moon, I can learn from you and then do it by myself.... In that view, it'd be maybe more important to introduce a pride-value in techs, so some techs give the nation that first discovered them a pride that make people of that nationality more happines.
Anyway, if you're so very interested in having projects as wonders, it's alright with me.

About mark's remark, I agree that one good thing about wonders is that they put the player in a position where he/she must compete, which is the main goal of the game. Wonders look like an important feature in the game regardless of implementation or their role in reproducing history.

Rodrigo

	10-12-1999 01:57									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Daniel:
I guess setting the investment goal high enough you can control how many wonders can be in a game. Anyway, it's important to be possible for a lot of cities/provinces to have great buildings not necessarily considered wonders that can act as wonders increasing pride/happiness/migration (and therefore trade also). Take FE:
-Aztec pyramids
-Paris
-Rome
-Forbiden city (china)
-Golden Gate, San Francisco.
-etc

So, wonders really are just extreme cases of city improvements. In those cases, bonuses are real big.

I mentioned in some other forum another form of geo-specific achievments that I'd like to introduce here for you to comment: Some events that happen in a certain location are thereafter remembered and those places are then highly attractive for some groups of people. Take for instance the holy land in Israel. Not only a source of tourism nowdays, also a place where thousands have gone to just to be there, keeping Jerusalem an important city until now. Holy land also was the main reason for european crusaders to try invading palestine, since religious and political control of that place was highly desireble. And all beacuse Christ lived there! Mecca is much the same. In clash, then, it'd be nice if the game marks some cities after some events giving it a value like wonders.
what do you think?

	10-12-1999 03:47									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Sounds good to me.

Daniel

	10-12-1999 04:39									#14
	Remove this text

I bumped a year long discussion on modern wonders on the Civ II general/ community area in case anyone wants to check that out, or you could click on the link http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/H...html?date=18:34
Some of it seems relevant and some of it is just nonsense.

	10-12-1999 05:21									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yakopepper (I'd LOVE to know where THAT handle came from ): I really disagree with the statement that other civs benefiting from a wonder is "wrong". History has proven that statement incorrect. I'll use that Manhatten Project as an example. Before it was completed, nobody even knew if the goals of the M.P. were attainable, let alone did they know the correct path that the research should take. Once the American scientists split the atom, they let the proverbial genie out of the bottle. It didn't take very long for other scientists to duplicate their work, since they then know the correct path to take - in general terms. Sure, they still had to work out the details (that's what some of the 3rd world scientists are working out today with their nukes, the rest just lack certain equipment). Once learned, it's difficult to unlearn. Espionage certainly played a part in this, but not entirely. In fact, many historians think today that if it had not been for WWII, we STILL wouldn't have atomic power because it required a conflict like WWII to create the incentive for a country to invest so many resources into a single project. The same is true for the Apollo Project (although the incentive was slightly different - the space race in that case).

In game terms, this could be implemented by delaying the effects that the other nations get from the wonder. I strongly feel that NOT giving it to them at all, however, is seriously out of sync with reality/history.

	10-12-1999 08:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think maybe I just didnt make myself clear enough. The manhatten project represents the testing of nuclear weapons. Therefore, any nations with nuclear weapons have tested. Many nations have nuclear capabilities, but no nuclear bombs.

Im not saying that a nation would never abtain the benefits, but rather would need to test for themself. Or just buy it from Russia!! And acts of espionage would help them along.

The mistake in CivII was that the moment the MP was done, everyone could build nukes. Thats what Im getting at.

The same would apply for the Apollo program. The benefits of doing it oneself outweigh the benefits of learning from others. Otherwise, China wouldnt be sending a man in space.

Daniel
P.S.--its was an Italian scientist who did the splitting.

	10-12-1999 09:35									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

I suscribe to daniel's opinion. If you want to make A-bombs you must develop the necessary research & testing. Other civ making it before just tells you that it can be done, but nothing else. The same is true for gunpowder, FE. If you find how to use this chemical mix as a weapon others will have to catch up. And this is exactly what I mean about M.P. or Apollo Program being not wonders, but techs. They can be developed eventually by any civ, but it must be developed or learned from others.

Rodrigo

	10-12-1999 11:28									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Johnmcd:
I visited the forum and didn't find anything like we're talking about here. Just conversations about Disney World or stuff like that qualifying or not for a modern wonder... Maybe you saw something I didn't.

Rodrigo

	10-12-1999 17:14									#19
	Remove this text

Daniel and Rodrigo:

On MP (Manhattan Project) and Apollo being plain techs.

What characterizes these in my mind as wonders rather than techs is:

1. These are massive Engineering Projects, just like the pyramids. As such they require a huge and Dedicated physical infrastructure. Their cost exceeds normal research activities by factors of about 10-100. The dedicated infrastructure is not like normal factories, its not really flexible enough to make other things like cars also (esp for MP). So although the Cost of MP would decrease with advances (and come down dramatically once Someone has done it) its still an enterprise that's somewhat intependent of the normal infrastructure of the civ. If a civ wants to build its own nukes it needs to make Large investments like these. (I think everyone should be able to build either wonder)

2. They are Enormous Leaps in Human Progress (some might question that on MP). Its like going from no gunpowder to 1900s rifles all in one step. We want the player to FEEL that. An ordinary tech just doesn't cut it IMO.

So I think if we have wonders these should be there. What's a tall building rate as a wonder compared to these two?

	11-12-1999 02:14									#20
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Hi, again, all. A long lost member, temporarily back from the dead:

Neat discussion. I see two distinct concepts here that might perhaps be better off if treated as seperate topics . . .

1) A 'physical' wonder of the world. Perhaps, like in SimCity, 'great' building projects could be benefit a locale/city (tourism, research, prestige, etc). Many, many cities currently have such 'wonders' (the Astrodome, the Empire State building, Disneyland, M.I.T., etc).

2) Amazing technological breakthrus.
I'm not quite sure how these differ from techs, to be honest. Is the manhattan project any different from the discovery of gunpowder? Or are we just more advanced, and able to exploit it faster? Perhaps there should be major techs and minor techs? Perhaps a 'tech wonder' creates a new 'tech tree' to begin researching? Then 'wonder' techs could be 'metalworking', 'animal husbandry', 'chemistry', 'gunpowder', 'flight', 'atomic fusion', 'space flight', 'genetics', that sort of thing? In other words, a 'tech wonder' would be discovering a new tech that no one in the game has yet discovered?

	11-12-1999 02:56									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

F Smith: Welcome back! And you made some pretty good points. On #2, I'd elaborate that certain "wonders" such as Apollo and the Manhatten Project were more than simply another tech since they really required the invention of a whole series of new tech breakthroughs to accomplish the wonder. In each example, entire industries were created for the achievement of a single goal. The discovery of gunpowder, agriculture, etc didn't really require that enormous capital investment to acquire the technology. Until modern times, theoretically, a single person or small group could have stumbled (researched, learned, whatever) upon a tech. This in fact happened throughout history (FE Gutenberg's press, flight, certain electronic innovations, etc). Sure, they DID require a limited knowledge base to begin with, but I challenge you to find a "tech" that didn't!

Bottom line: Certain wonders (Apollo, nukes, Cure for Cancer) require huge expenses towards their research and development when compared to what we're calling techs. As I said earlier, many experts think that atomic power was only made possible by the forces present during WWII. Hitler expended huge amounts of manpower towards "advanced techs" - not WW, but still quite advanced(FE rocketry amnd jets) that robbed Germany of badly needed resources. He'd have been better off building lower tech improvements rather than ME262, ME163's, V2's, etc. If we can reflect this potential hazard in Clash, I think that we'll have succeeded!

	11-12-1999 03:20									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Mark:
Repeating something I said before, we can discuss hours about what type of techs represent turning points so I don't think that should be a good way to determine if a tech can be considered a wonder. Think in simple techs like "writting" and its contribution to mankind. That'd be a wonder to me (if I was asked to pick a tech to be a wonder). Not a method to produce a superbomb.

About pyramids and MP/AP being huge engineering projects, it's true, but I guess we're losing the main point here. Someone at the civ2 wonder forum proposed the "US road network" as a modern wonder. This too is a massive eng. project, took lots of money to complete and is REAL big. But, do you consider it a wonder? I must disagree. Spending is necessary for a wonder and a wonder is in itself a big project, but it must be a "wonder", something you look at and feel proud of, and impresses you. It also goes beyond culture or beliefs, you get just breathless staring at the pyramids no matter if you're chinese, canadian or whatever (can we say the same about the US road net?). The MP is not only unknown to most of people, it also generates hate. Many people would prefer this project never be developed. It's not a wonder.
Maybe the Apollo Program is a tech that one may consider a wonder since it's beyond americans and make human beings proud of their capabilities. It also gives hope for us to explore the stars, an old dream. Techs, however, don't convince me as wonders for I like wonders to be geo-specific buildings, located at cities giving bonuses at those places, but I'm willing to accept such things as the Apollo Program.

Rodrigo

	11-12-1999 03:44									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I do agree that these(MP and Apollo) are magnificiant(sp?) feats requiring mega resources, but I really dont care if you call em wonders or techs or whatever. Thats not the point.

My point is that the MP and Apollo program cost mega bucks and I can only hope you can accurately portray this in Clash. --weather or not you call them wonders or not.

Daniel

	11-12-1999 04:04									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Let me stop this too much saying that Apollo and MP are techs. Well maybe for MP it could almost be. But the Apollo program wasn't. It used existing technology to achieve an end result and it in itself didn't advance anything technologywise. We could easily have had the space technolgies we have today without the apollo program. And in fact another thing that i think is required for a wonder that hasn't been brought up yet much is that it goes above and beyond the normal feats thought of for that time period and can't easily be reproduced for quite some time at that magnitude. This is also true in some ways for the apollo program. When was the last time someone landed on the moon? And today we couldn't do it because we've lost the instuctions on how to build the Apollo rockets which were even more powerful than the russian ones.

End result is that the Apollo program (or similar such thing) won't be put as a tech per say in the tech model.

	11-12-1999 04:40									#25
	Put an end to popups!

Hi Again F_Smith

If you're temporarily back from the dead, Make Sure your life insurance is paid up!
Good to Cya again...

All:

Well, guys I'm going to bow out of this discussion 'cause I've made my points and have a demo to put out!

Just make sure whatever you spec out that your wonders are Fun, spur Competition and Adrenaline Rushes, and aren't Too Imbalancing.

	08-01-2000 09:14									#26
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Hey you may want to check out here: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/...html?date=09:35 They have a lot of good ideas for various ways of implimenting wonders.

One thing I do think should be in there that hasn't been discussed is "natural wonders." These wouldn't be as all important as other wonders but at the same time wouldn't cost any resources to build. Also so no one would fight over them easily they could be hidden until someone "discovers" it and decides whether or not to promote it.

These are the 7 natural wonders of our world:
Northen Lights
Grand Canyon
Paricutin Volcano
Harbor of Rio de Janeiro
Victoria Falls
Mount Everest
Great Barrier Reef

Another listing that goes beyond the number 7 can be found at http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/other.html
Heres the original seven wonders of the ancient world:
The Pyramids of Egypt
Hanging Gardens of Babylon
The Walls of Babylon (This was also sometimes reffered as a wonder)
Statue of Zeus (Jupiter) at Olympia
Temple of Artemis (Diana) at Ephesus
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus
Colossus at Rhodes
Pharos of Alexandria

Here's Civ2's list:
Ancient:
The Pyramids
The Hanging Gardens
The Great Library
The Great Lighthouse
The Oracle
The Great Wall

Medevil:
King Richard's Crusade
Marco Polo's Embassy
Michelangelo's Chapel
Copernicus' Observatory
Magellan's Expedition
-One more i can't remember-

Industrial:
Leonardo's Workshop
J. S. Bach's Cathedral
Isaac Newton's College
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Darwin's Voyage
Statue of Liberty
Eiffel Tower

Modern:
Women's Suffrage
Hoover Dam
Manhattan Project
United Nations
Apollo Program
SETI Program
Cure for Cancer

List of lost Ancient, Modern and Natural Wonders at http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/other.html

[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited January 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited January 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited January 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited January 08, 2000).]

	10-01-2000 04:04									#27
	Got spare money?

LGJ:
The Colossus and Sun Tzu's War Academy--you can add those to your list.

Daniel

	21-01-2000 08:01									#28
	Remove this text

I would like to reinforce the point that many of the wonders were not technologically or difficult. The problem was in the vast outlaying of money etc. I would like to call some of these special projects. For example Most civ people can think of the Hoover dam wonder as actually being a national hydro electric system under a different name. The possible projects are many and varied and include many large high cost projects. It would even be possible to share these costs across civs for joint benefit.
Examples are -
>The Grand Canal project in China
>The Panama and Suez canals
>International efforts like curing smallpox or polio giving the funding countries diplomatic benefits and a happiness boost (as well as decreasing disease)
>The Chunnel
>In the future the possibility of bridges between Denmark and Sweden, or between any two points of almost connected land.
>International space station project. (Could be built by one nation but no diplomatic benefit)
>If a suitable terrain model would allow we could even flood a depression etc.

The list could very well include any great feat of engineering and the first would be considered the initial "wonder" allowing more to exist. (Only the first contributes to civ score, or maybe the remainder count as 1/2)

	03-02-2000 16:16									#29
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Hmmm, obviously you don't know much about the construction of the Panama Canal, or don't know what "technologically difficult" means in terms of the early industrial age. I'm not trying to flame here, it's just apparent that you are looking back on it with little sense of perspective. If you did know it would boggle your bananas. Heck, if you knew what it takes to keep it open every year it would amaze you. The yearly maintenance work on the Panama canal is about half the effort it took to dig the Suez from scratch, IIRC.

I can't recall what the dollar figure for construction was, but I do know that the entire Federal budget in that period was on the order of $750 million; adjusting for inflation that's less than 1% of the current one. That should help your perspective in terms of the resources available at the time.

Sorry, the civil engineer in me comes out every once in a while.

	04-02-2000 03:51									#30
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Your right the panama cannal was quite high tech and difficult to construct. (I'm unsure of the number of deaths but I seem to remember it being quite high.) Yes I do then know that the Panama canal was at least an order of magnitude more difficult to construct than the suez canal. (Flat sand is a lot easier to move than a mountain range)

My point with the technologically difficult remark is regarding the fact that the canal would have been possible earlier but only with considerably more labour being allocated. It did use steam shovels etc and high explosives. But you can replace steam shovels with 5000 odd labourers, and dynamite can be replaced by gunpowder or brute labour as well. You just have to be ready to take many thousands of deaths and have the task take much longer. If China owned Panama I have no doubt that some emperor would have ordered it constructed 600 years ago with 500000 workers while having 200000 deaths during its 50 year build time.
[This message has been edited by Krenske (edited February 03, 2000).]