06-09-2004 06:25									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

cool

For some reason I didn't like Morrowind when I first bought it. But this past week I have gotten back into it. This after owning the game for a year and a half. I'm still not finished with the game yet, but I'm close. I haven't even explored half the map yet.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to this. But as usual, I don't get too excited.

	06-09-2004 06:33									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

TES3 is a great game. But it still needs much improvement as a true rpg.

first of all. Dialogue options. There needs to be some. I often only have 1 or 2 choices. You can either give the item they are looking for or not give it. *yawn*. I want dialogue trees.

I hated the character creation system at first, but there are a lot of good things about it. I think if you take away master trainers, you can fix a lot of what's wrong with the character system. You shouldn't be able to train skills past 50.

multiplayer. it would be nice. Although this is such a huge game. But it could still work. They wouldn't necessarliy have to go with you for the entire epic quest. Maybe just hang around for a few minor quests. I'm sure they can figure out some way to work this.

the world is absolutely gorgeous. No changes needed aside from improved graphics. Better stability.

	06-09-2004 21:03									#33
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actually in a game like this multiplayer is probably out of the question unless they went mmorpg. even then it might be near impossible because of all the ai npcs, number of objects, etc which are very hard to keep track of online. plus morrowind would have made an absolutely shitty online game with it's balancing problems not to mention all the exploits that would have been possible. seriously, you shouldn't have so much faith that they'll 'just figure it out'.

	07-09-2004 04:30									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't mind the game being single player though. There aren't enough great single player games anymore. But there are times multiplayer is really great. But the problem arises when developers develop a game with multiplayer specifically in mind, and neglect the single player aspects of the game. This was not a problem with morrowind.

another thing I forgot to mention above was improving the movement AI. It needs a lot of work. I kind of hate those quests where a NPC has to follow you. A bit annoying.

	07-09-2004 05:08									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't see how multiplayer is out of the question at all, as long as it is confined to maybe 4 players max. You could very easily have 1 person controlling the story, while the others are simply sidekicks tagging along. You could also have something similar to Neverwinter, where everyone gets any quest that's triggered at the same time.

The real problem is that I don't trust Bethesda to make anything that isn't riddled with bugs. Morrowind drove me absolutely insane as soon as I figured out how stuff was supposed to work and could see how nothing did. I want desperately for this game to be good. Morrowind showed tremendous innovation and potential, but for me it failed miserably on multiple levels. Given Bethesda's track record (look at Pirates anyone) I just don't see this game being any different.

	07-09-2004 06:21									#36
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

what are all the bugs exactly? I've heard lots about bugs, but don't see any. Although my game crashes to desktop far too frequently (though I am running emule in the background- not sure if that matters). But I still don't know all the ins and outs of this game.

	07-09-2004 07:26									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I'll try to keep this relatively short .

Bugs

Duplication bug - Whenever a mod is added or anything in the game is changed really, there is a chance that any number of things in the game may be cloned. Have you ever seen two flags in the same place, or opened a door only to have another one in the same place that you need to open again? Usually this is just an inconvenience, but it can also duplicate creature spawns and NPCs which royally ****s up the game. This is my least favorite problem.

Stat modifying bugs - Lets say you are have 100 speed and are wearing a belt that adds +10 speed. You're display will say 110 speed in white (not the normal tan color) because it's got a bonus. Now lets say something damages your speed by 20. Your speed will now say 90 in red. The problem occurs when you go to restore your stats. If you keep your equipment on, your stats will only restore to 100, not the 110 you're supposed to have. It makes it so you constantly have to unequip and re-equip bonus items when anything damages your stats.

AI Fighting - If you jump over a creature or NPC in combat, they freak out and run away forever.

Clipping Issues - The world is built so that the ground isn't really treated as ground, but just another object. This means that stuff has a good chance to fall through the walls or floor. This sucks when it's a quest item. The dude under Ebonheart with the really good armor is notorious for falling through the floor when you kill him.

Mecantile Skill - totally broken, a higher skill means you pay lower prices, but vendors will also pay you less, so you gain nothing basically.

Soul Trap - combining this with other spells can do freaky ****, like permanent summons and permanent fotification of stats.

Armor Class - meaningless. Your armor class counts for jack ****. It does not make you harder to hit, and it does not reduce damage.

There are also more serious problems like the games freakin' memory leak which makes you restart every so often. It's way worse on Xbox, because it can cause a dirty disc error that just breaks the game.

There are plenty of others, but I covered the ones that bug me the most.

Game balance issues

Stat capping - regardless of race, class, playing style, birthsign, etc. every stat caps at 100. This sucks. It makes it so every character will end up being the same regardless of choices made. There NEEDS to be caps placed on minor and misc. skills and caps on skills and stats based on your race, class, and birthsign. An orc should be able to have a higher max strength, but a lower max intelligence for example. This is the single biggest reason the character building system is totally broken IMO.

Enchanting - Lots of problems here. Enchanting constant effect items is GROSSLY OVERPOWERED. I actually was able to make my guy have 100% resistance to everything in addition to 100% sanctuary = invincible. Likewise, 100% chameleon can be had with only 2 items and it makes it so no enemy in the game will attack you. Enchanting items yourself is pretty much broken also, because for anything decent, even with all 100's on stats, your chances suck; however, take it to an NPC and the success rate is 100%. This makes no sense.

Alchemy - This skill would be fine, if it were capped, but it's not. If you keep making fortify intelligence potions and drinking them, you can end up being able to make potions that fortify stats by the millions for months at a time.

Magic vs. Melee - If you simply use a longsword, you'll become invincible by the time you reach level 25. If you use magic, you'll never be able to cast a decent spell more than once and you'll stuggle through the entire game.

Skill problems - Open spells are far far more effective that lock picking skills. This is stupid, because it means the best thief is a pure mage. Some skills are very easy to raise without training. Others are near impossible. It's also really stupid that the best way to raise your acrobatics is to slam the jump button a crapload.

Training - obviously needs to be capped.

Birthsigns - the Atronach birthsign is 1000 times better than any other birthsign. Any sign that gives you a stat bonus does absolutely nothing, because everything caps at 100 anyway.

	07-09-2004 07:28									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Really, for me, if the character building issues were resolved, I could ignore the other stuff probably.

	07-09-2004 08:40									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

that is one I have noticed. I have noticed weird things with my strength. I was thinking about unequipping and requipping my stuff.

My strength should be over 100. It's now 100.

	07-09-2004 08:43									#40
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Yep, unequip everything, and you'll see some of your stats are red. You've gotta heal with everything off then equip everything again to fix it.

	07-09-2004 09:02									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

and I kind of agree about AC. I have a damn good AC now. And that Umbra just kicked my ass. Rats still hit me (which is good in a way- I can build up my blocking and heavy armour skill real easy )

And there are a lot of balance issues, no doubt.

	07-09-2004 10:38									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

yeah, tes games have lots of issues. i'm ambivalent about both daggerfall and morrowind. i just hope they get to the point where they decide the focus on gameplay even if it's at the expense of having 2000 npcs instead of 3000. i look at it like this - what's the point of a huge world if 90% of the people playing become bored before they see more than 1/2 of it(i'd wager it's even worse than that)? if they get the gameplay improved the modders will take care of the content. even games like final fantasy have solid gameplay(combat mostly) so you'd think tes 4 could too.

it's really a catch 22. the openess of tes games is directly at odds with balanced, and good gameplay. look at magic for example. there is no way they'll ever be able to balance it as it is now. it's even more impossible because during combat the ai could never react to all the spells the pc could have unless they knew them all too. it's just ridiculous. they need to seriously cut back before any balance could happen.

	07-09-2004 10:52									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wooo... Tes 4 .

If the game is even half as good as Morrowind, it'll be playing it for at least 100 hours.

	07-09-2004 12:05									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by pg it's really a catch 22. the openess of tes games is directly at odds with balanced, and good gameplay. look at magic for example. there is no way they'll ever be able to balance it as it is now. it's even more impossible because during combat the ai could never react to all the spells the pc could have unless they knew them all too. it's just ridiculous. they need to seriously cut back before any balance could happen.

I dunno. I think most of the balance problems would be really easy to fix, personally. I just think that, like you said, Bethesda was too concerned with creating a crapload of locales and NPCs so the actual gameplay came as kind of an afterthought.

	07-09-2004 14:42									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BustaMike Well, I'll try to keep this relatively short . Bugs edit..... AI Fighting - If you jump over a creature or NPC in combat, they freak out and run away forever.

Well i think this could be a feature - if someone jumped over me i'd probably run away too

[vague note: in celtic mythology it was called a 'salmon leap' and celtic heros were suposed to be able to do it as one of their hero skills]

from what i can remember of the elder scrolls games Arena may have been the least buggy?
Daggerfall was worse than Morrowind, although in many ways i prefer it out of all of them - but i'm very forgiving and tend to role play in an rpg, rather than exploit the system.......still hopefully they will eventually come up with a robust game - they've had plenty of chances to get it right

	07-09-2004 23:59									#46
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

i've never gotten around to playing arena. i need to download it from bethesda someday and try it out. anyone played it?

child of thor - i'd argue you exploit morrowind just by playing it. seriously, the game is so unbalanced so many things you do could be considered exploits in other games. things that are common sense are exploits in morrowind because the game can't cope with them. in any shooter attacking from an elevated position is good tactics but in morrowind it's usually an exploit because the ai will not be able to get to you. that's just one example, there are probably a hundred like that.

	08-09-2004 16:21									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

yes it sure does have its flaws. Still it comes down to the kind of game you like to play.
Being a fan of Civ(a huge addiction in my life!) and games like it, i just got the taste for huge epic type games. The more hours of gaming the better.

For me its the freedom to go where i like and do(within the game limits) what i want when i want. Thats Morrowinds biggest draw for me.

If you want an ultra realistic FPS shooter, with combat physics then play America's Army, if you want a tight detailed story/mission based game with restricted movement then play SplinterCell.

Morrowind has its flaws but its one of the best examples of a free form game around, and great value for money(100's of hours of gameplay).

I'm hoping TES4 will go one better

Last edited by child of Thor on 08-09-2004 at 16:28

	08-09-2004 20:35									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yep... and that's also why perfect balance is impossible in Morrowind. Yes, some flaws were easily fixed and luckily done by mods, such as creature weaknesses, but with your freedom to take just about every item or kill everyone and do as you please, the game can't be 100% balanced.

In Morrowind... there are 0 NPCs you can't kill. Also, there's only 1 NPC that you must not kill in order to complete the main quest. As long as that one specific NPC survives, you can still complete it .

	08-09-2004 22:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by pg i've never gotten around to playing arena. i need to download it from bethesda someday and try it out. anyone played it?.

I'd suggest download it while you can, it seems that this offer to let people download the game for free is for a short period of time. I've not played my copy yet, been catching up on Civ 3 epic game. I was planning to just veg out the whole labor day weekend on that game but I had a last minute out of town guest. It was nice having her here and fun too but dammit I need my Civ 3 fix!

	08-09-2004 22:07									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: In Morrowind... there are 0 NPCs you can't kill. Also, there's only 1 NPC that you must not kill in order to complete the main quest. As long as that one specific NPC survives, you can still complete it .

That is absurd. There are at least 10 or 20 you can't kill, at least until their part in the story is done.

	08-09-2004 22:57									#51
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quote: That is absurd. There are at least 10 or 20 you can't kill, at least until their part in the story is done.

no, just one.

	09-09-2004 01:35									#52
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Here's a list of characters I am certain you cannot kill or the story will not progress off the top of my head. Please tell me where I'm wrong.

The orc in the mage guild, balmora
The dude in the fighter's guild that needs a puzzle box, balmora
Your shirtless skooma addict commander
Divath Fyr
The guy in Alderan that teaches about ashlanders
The wise woman ashlander
Assorted other ashlanders (not the ones you have to kill)
Assorted great house members (not the ones you have to kill)

Now, I agree that you can take out any of these people after they have served their purpose, but doing so before you get their quests stops the game.

	09-09-2004 01:49									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Now, I agree that you can take out any of these people after they have served their purpose, but doing so before you get their quests stops the game.

You have to ask yourself, what purpose do they really serve? Really dont even need the one NPC, if you're quick about it you could probably do it without them.


Cacadejour

	09-09-2004 02:08									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

First, what I meant is NPCs you can't kill as in are unable to kill. Yes, killing some may break quests. However, there's still only ONE NPC that has to survive for you to complete the main quest.

Highlight below to see how.

spoiler(highlight to read): True, there are I think around 30 people you need for the main quest the normal way. However, you can complete the main quest with everyone dead, as long as Yagrum Bagarn (the last living Dwarf) is alive. To complete the main quest, you need the Wraithguard, Sunder and Keening. Normally, you do tons of stuff, then Vivec sees you and gives you Wraithguard. You can, though, kill Vivec and take the Wraithguard, it just won't work. To make it work, you need to talk to Yagrum Bagarn and give him certain items found in the Red Mountain. So, he can activate the Wraithguard for you. As long as he's alive, therefore, it's possible to complete the MQ. This alternative way is probably harder. You need to do much less stuff, but you have to kill Vivec, which is way too hard for a low-level character. However, if you posess the strength to kill him, anything else will be easy.

	09-09-2004 04:31									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

True, I forgot about that path. Actually, now that I think about it, you can kill him.

spoiler(highlight to read): You don't actually need the wraithguard, sunder, or keening if you have screwed around with alchemy. Raising your stats to ridiculous levels allows you to #1 use the sunder and keening w/o the wraithguard because you have sooooo much health, or even better #2 kill the heart in 1 hit with any weapon because your strength is so high.

Sure it's a total exploit, but the game is already broken so who cares.

	09-09-2004 04:32									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Also, that reminds me of another retarded game flaw. You can have 2 wraithguards at the same time, one for each hand.

	09-09-2004 18:59									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes, true on all these flaws. Or you can use alchemy without raising attributes and still win:

spoiler(highlight to read): An extremely strong Restore Health potion. It restores health you lose from Sunder/Keening quicker than they deal you damage.

However... these ways are truly exploits, and the game isn't meant to be played that way. While the path where you have that guy alive and go the 'other route' is intended by game developers.

	10-09-2004 01:04									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think coming from a pen+paper rpg background i just find it very hard to roleplay+use exploits at the same time.......well unless i was to choose to specificaly roleplay an exploit using character

So i tend to be forgiving of the TES games flaws and dont intentionaly use an exploit if i find one

	10-09-2004 18:03									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yup... I don't use exploits as I'm an honest gamer. I've never taken advantage of bugs that let you kill anyone easily or similar stuff. I did, however, at first use all the non-bugged opportunities presented to me or that I found (as a true strategy gamer, hehe). The result - at level 10, I was very rich, took whatever and whenever I pleased, and was generally tough. By level 20, I was almost a god.

	10-09-2004 19:37									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just official....

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion! In October, tons of new info in a 12-page feauture.