17-06-1999 12:58									#1
	Do not forget to implement and release... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The hype ist still lasting. But there will come the day when people want to see something!
For now as I can see there are opened new topics over and over while the current discussions get dead ends and there is no clearness of what will be implemented and how and why.
I was very astonished also about this phantom discussion "should the numbers be visible to the player"? Is it my bad English or didn't this make really any sense?

So, dear development team, dear Mark:
You have already wrote some program code which is waiting for its release. It would be much more interesting to watch the ideas implemented and when there would be an interface and some rudimental gameplay, everybody could have better ideas (I nearly wrote "would know what he is talking about").
Sadly clash still does not work on systems without the whole development tools installed. This would be the first thing to fix and the second to release a runnable alpha demo. Before you do not do this all the discussions about interface and micromanagement must remain dry theory. Even not to talk about the higher-level thingies.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

	18-06-1999 04:28									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Peter:

Hype? We're not clever enough to utilize hype , at least I'm not.

On the forum orgainization, this is a Working area. The current specs for the game will be posted on the new web page when it goes up. That should be in the next week or two.

The 'poll' thread "should the numbers be visible to the player" seemed to make sense to lots of people. If not, at least they were willing to provide a vote anyway! Some elections make me think such an effect is occurring.

On a release of the V0.05 code that's actually Useable (these potential customers are So picky ) F_Smith took on the job. Unfortunately, he had a surprise crash project at work, and then left for a conference. Hopefully he'll be back to work on it soon. I tried to bundle it all into a win95 exe but got numerous errors that I couldn't fathom, so I quit after an hour.

I disagree about the order of importance of things you assert. If we want to avoid doing everything three times we Must have a decent plan with some thought behind it. Our first alpha should have at least a decent sketch of Most of the game models so it can serve a purpose.

I am probably even more frustrated than you are that the 'write once, run anywhere' java with respect to V0.05 has not lived up to my expectations. We will move beyond the problems soon, but when I can't say.

-Mark

	18-06-1999 04:39									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I, too, can't see much of a hype. I don't even care for any running version right now, since I absolutely trust in our coders they will be able to solve any possible problem occurring.

Maybe some topics seem very abstract at a casual glance - I freely admit that I don't understand each and every thread if I don't follow it every day... but, then again, I think evereybody should concentrate on a few areas of interest only - no use to try to meddle in each and every aspect of the game.

Sure, we need a lot of imagination right now - so what? Every good programmer / designer needs that, otherwise he's got the wrong job

I think each of us knows that it won't be possible to include every feature which might come to mind - and if there's a "dead-ended" thread, it only shows that either the issue isn't that important or all that can be said has been said.

	18-06-1999 10:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

-There is no need to implement every feature suggested.
-There is no need to implement accepted features immediately.
-There is no need to implement stunning graphics and to tune the program for speed in this early stage.
-But if you want to implement anything you should begin someday (sounds logical, doesn't?).
I am glad to hear you are working on the problem to make the current code usable.
The most work you will spend on clash anyway will be the little things: little bugs, display problems, interface tuning. And believe me, if you really think you can make a paper of design and features before you implemented anything you will have several bad surprises soon. The badest of them will be realizing that a feature that looked so good in imagination is unuseable in real life because of various reasons.
At last: Some things are hard to understand and very abstract in a "specification" you can read on a website. A thing you never can simulate with any specification is the feeling how much fun a feature can bring or kill because this is somewhat complex. There are very many games that have incredibly great features - while you read them on the cover or in the gametest. And when you play the game probably you will say: OK, nice thing, was fun to watch but now I would like to disable.
If you develop a game you will have an evolution. It is very good to have visions but the right way ist to start to do it and make little changes on the way.
Believe me, you WILL have to make changes. But it is easier and more fun to follow a thing like "could you place the display for food onto the same screen as the display for happyness" and test the effect than to hundreds of such improvements at once.

This was a suggestion from someone who is programming games since 11 years - take it or leave it, I will not bother you again until I see some program running.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

	19-06-1999 01:05									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Peter,

what, please, do you expect?

This is a team consisting of people from all over the world, most of which have never met in person. From my point of view (and from my experience) there absolutely must be lots of talking before any serious programming is done.

One thing in your post, however, is IMHO outright wrong: There is a need to care for, as you put it, "stunning graphics" even in this early stage. Why? See, a player has exactly two things when playing a game: Graphics and sound, with the latter more being some nice add-on. Graphics is everything, in a way. Strip the graphics, and all that remains are numbers, boring numbers - this is true for each and every game, even 3D action shooters.
For each feature implemented in a game there must be a visual representation, and it must be convincing - if you have a fantastic feature, but are unable to visualize it, better drop it.
Btw.: Sometimes people tell me very nice things about the web pages I do and tell me they get the impression that everything fits together nicely - the reason is exactly that: Because I do the graphics and the coding / HTML-writing parallel, so each can depend on the other. While you are certainly right that there will be changes, many of these changes come from a constant exchange of program and graphics ideas (and problems, of course).

The only way a good game can be done is by letting it grow - but this includes graphics from the very beginning - no use to write complex algorithm and try to "get some clothes for the naked baby" in the end - they wouldn't fit, be sure.

	19-06-1999 02:58									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Peter,

We try to think first and then do it. Our threads a kind of maps, so we know where we would like to go, what we would like to do. We can not guarantee to implement everything which is on the site, but we try to use the best and funiest of the idea's.

Blade Runner

	19-06-1999 17:14									#7
	Support Apolyton

Dominique, I understand that graphics are very important to you since you are an artist. I agree that graphics are absolutely essential even for the very first implementation of the program. Me too is making the graphical display first before the basic data structures of the whole game are clear, but there is no need to have the final graphics already done to develop the game engine.
Come to my Homepage and download the English or German version of Path of Mankind. It is the 14th beta release since the project started 1997 and the graphics are still not very different to the first version (you would not think it's using 65536 colors). This will change NOW because we convert the game from DOS to Win95 and make some huge changes in interface and gameplay.
The other current project, 3DTT, has more graphical intensity yet due to its 3D but there will be several changes in the 3D objects. They are absolutely not the final, nor the textures and icons. We concentrate on developing some very wicked gemetric features and the overall gameplay - This game is no game yet, it is more somthing like a 3D landscape demo - but we already have the feature of building railroads and streets and we release the program frequently to have REAL feedback. Sonn there will be the 4th release since December.
Discussions like in this forum we had, too, in the beginning but not so much and not so long and what we have discussed we have to rediscuss again now, because it is an absolutely completely different thing to brainstrom about something virtual and to use the program that DOES something. The wishes and ideas turn sometimes 180° if you can SEE what you wished.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

	19-06-1999 19:09									#8
	Suffering from ads?

Peter,

(strange for two Germans writing English here ), for one CLASH will be much more complex than WAY-X is to be, which makes more beforehand brainstorming and coordination necessary.

Two, graphics' task to visualize information is much more stressed in CLASH. CLASH will in no way try to simulate a "natural" look with real 3D etc. but will instead be played on an information screen. It is of upmost importance to know very early in the development phase what can and what can't be done graphically.

Btw. I don't see myself as an artist, but a graphics-oriented programmer. I did my share of game programming on C64 and Amiga...

Ah, since you posted the URL of your homepage, 2 short tips:

a) include width and height in EVERY IMG tag
b)don't use those dreadful banners

	20-06-1999 09:54									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

>for one CLASH will be much more complex
>than WAY-X is to be

How can you say this if you even did not look? (There is no game called WAY-X...)

There are two projects:
1. 3DTT:
This is gonna be a Transport Tycoon like game in real 3D. Real 3D means it is not only a 2D tiled map that we display as 3D (like SinCity3000 was intended to be).

2. Path of Mankind:
Mark already knows it. This will be a CIV-like game. It has as much ambitions as clash for complexity, ease of use, improved AI and realism but will stay closer to CIV. So cities will still be the main basic structures on the map and there will be building construction within cities.
In the beginning we had 15 different resources and planned to have 30. Now after several test playings we reduced them to 9!
In the beginning we distributed the city's workers onto the tiles similar to CIV: one worker on a tile harvests everything the tile provides. But we had the possibility to put up to 15 workers onto one single tile. To redistribute them was hell.
Version 14 now had an interface changing in the city view introducing the scrollbars for workers. For every resource there is a scrollbar and you can set the number of workers for every resource. This solution is the finest yet to make complex decisions with very few mouse action.
At the beginning we had pure numbers only but we returned to CIV's way to display numbers by icon masses - Call To Power missed this (it has an exemplary bad interface at all!).
These are basic things that you will discover on your own during development. - But only, if you begin to have a program.
This was my first statement and this will be my last: You can't develop the things that you are discussing if you don't have a program. The question f.e. "should the numbers be visible to the player?" is wrong. You don't have "numbers" at this time, you can't discuss their visibility. And when you will have them you will have to discuss this question for every single number.
PoM's interface f.e. has too many numbers disturbing the player - but we have real problems to decide which of them to wipe out.

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

	20-06-1999 04:03									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

First of all, I'm not a member of the Clash team.
Secondly, I have little practical experience in larger software projects.
Thirdly, I am going to ramble, so you have been warned :-)


The Clash project is a community project and much like a bazaar-style
open source project, so I recommend you all read the paper
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings...ral-bazaar.html
The Cathedral and the Bazaar if you are not already familiar with it.


Clash is not really open source though, which puzzles me, because I think you
all would do it even if you thought you would never get a single
cent (or pfennig) for all your work. Please, please, please tell me if
I'm wrong in this. But you should read the paper in any case.
For inspiration if nothing else.


Obviously, in a community project people will work to have fun,
and everyone is doing what they like the most.
Some people, like Mark, who will obviously have to do all the stuff that is
no fun for anyone :-), do some work because they feel an obligation, though.
But it is also clear to me, that the Clash project has a lot of people that
find great fun in writing long papers
about modelling the history of mankind but fewer that wants to implement
them and get their hands dirty with code (or perhaps management is too
restrictive and crushes any attempts at prototyping before all
design specifications are ready? ).


Most of what Peter says therefore makes sense to me,
as I believe in the positive
effects of the Show me the code and Release early, release often
principles (in networked community projects, that is - I'm not so sure how
great is would be in corporate environments).


Don't get me wrong, I actually like long papers about
modelling the history of mankind, and you guys have come up with
some amazingly inspirational stuff,
so I have fun just following the project, lurking in the shadows.


BTW, I'm a bit scared by the "if you want to join the team, you must be
willing to dedicate
10 hours a week to the project" requirement that I saw somewhere
(or was it a hallucination?). What if I want to do just a little work?
Like maintain a version control system, make suggestion about the
program design or implementation (if you ever get to that point :-),
write a little code (yes, I'm a Java programmer),
fix a few bugs or problems here and there, etc.

Also, I wonder how you're going to
divide any income while not deteriorating into micromanagement or
petty bickering over who did how much work
and how important/effective each person is?


End of ramble and Good Luck!


Martin


[This message has been edited by mca (edited June 19, 1999).]

	20-06-1999 05:41									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Martin:

Well, we certainly would like to have more java coders on the project. I'm pretty beat tonite so I'll only respond briefly to some of your points.

We are a community project, and anyone that's interested can join. So we pick up at least half of the 'Bazaar' flavor IMO. All of us are doing this primarily for the love of the Goal, with the possiblility that it will never earn anything. However, there are many in the group who Would like to see some monetary return if Clash is a success. Thus I refer to what we are doing as Quasi-open-source.

On writing of long papers on game mechanics:
Actually, I think None of us enjoy writing these things. I certainly dislike it. But to have something of this size move ahead in a reasonable manner Planning is Required. When I was doing Clash on my own, an approach with simultaneous interactive design and coding Was the best way, at least IMO. But with many designers and coders I believe it would be a Complete Mess to move ahead too soon. July 30th will come soon enough, and then we will be in Active coding. (Until then we are certainly trying to have the people who are solely coders doing productive things.) There are other issues involved in the process we are going with that I don't care to go into here. Check out apolyton.net/forums/Forum21/HTML/000070.html if you want to see the plan and some rationale.

On the 10 hrs/week that was in my judgement near the minimum amount someone could spend to have a reasonable role in the project. My main reason is that below a certain threshold it is IMO very difficult for someone to contribute seriously to a complex project. For someone who drifts in and out, there is a much bigger chance of misunderstandings that can make their contribution worth less, or worthless. Perhaps and average of like 5 hours might be more appropriate for high-productivity people. For one-time Clearly Defined projects within Clash we'd certainly be happy to consider exceptions.

On splitting up the rewards if we get any... IMO we need to get along further before worrying too much about it. I know this is not a legally enlightened opinion . I think most people would like to have the opportunity to get Some money than to Definitely get None.

-Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited June 19, 1999).]

	20-06-1999 06:48									#12
	Remove this text

We're definitely more 'Bizarre' than Cathedral.

And I think I speak for everyone virtually present.

[*]I thought we were open-source? I'd be willing to mail the source to anyone that wanted to see it. Isn't that okay, Mark?

[*]As for a new working 'alpha' right away, that's just not the way it works. Sound design is the key to a quality game, I feel. The possibilities for this machine to be used as a 'game interface' are developing so fast that a hasty decision can invalidate weeks of work.
For example, the Java2 graphics classes will pretty much change everything we do in the way of graphics, so measure twice, cut once might be the best approach. We'll get one out soon. I can fix the old code up to be cross platform by Friday, I think. Then we'll go from there.

[*]Finally, I'm working for free, on my own time as I have it. It's just a hobby to me, and only one of several such projects I dabble in.

[/list]
If Anyone makes any money off of it, cool. It goes on my resume. This is not my day job.


[This message has been edited by F Smith (edited June 19, 1999).]

	20-06-1999 07:04									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

'F':

We're certainly open source now. Send it to whoever wants it. However, my plan had always been to close off the openness of the source to those within the group at Some point. We still have to have a full-group discussion on that concept at some point.

Glad to hear you think you can get the old code cross-platform soon. It will be valuable to be able to show people there's Something solid, even if it is dated in terms of the design.

	20-06-1999 08:17									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I see my rambling was successful. But as rambles usually are, it was a bit unclear.

I don't demand working alpha-versions here and now, as that would be impossible, and I definitely recognize the value of a good design. However, I was worried that you would by default aim for close to perfect before releasing anything to people outside the core team.

Most of my worries stem from the non-openness (as I see it) of the project, as you risk losing a lot of potentially valuable input from those people that are not going to spend 10 hrs/w on the project in order to be allowed to contribute on the same terms as the core team. Also, some of those <10hrs/w people may later turn into "serious" contributors, but may not even consider looking into the project when they see the current requirements. As for making worthless contributions, sure, it will happen, but it is the risk of the contributor.

As for not worrying too much about splitting any monetary rewards, I think that it is not only "not legally enlightened" but "quite legally naive" and I think that if anyone is going to make money from this project, it is going to be your lawyers :-)

Finally: I am suprised! Did none of you enjoy writing what you did? Really? You all hated it did you? Oh well, now at least I know why money and lawyers will have to be involved. I can just imagine the court room: "...and this report from my client's psyciatrist clearly documents the trauma brought about by his work on the authoring of the game mechanics specs. Thus, he is eligible to receive greater compensation than he was initially granted...". *sigh* It is so sad. And to think that from the look of it, I could have sworn that the authors were quite enthusiastic about it...

Martin


[This message has been edited by mca (edited June 19, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by mca (edited June 20, 1999).]

	20-06-1999 12:44									#15
	Support Apolyton

mca, you have partially hit the point. There are many people who enjoy writing long feature papers and suggestions, a look at the postings nearby in the "CIV-improvement suggestions" forums proves this statement.
Also true, these people get off at the moment when the coding stuff gets the focus. They used to disappear even when algorithms are discussed. (I name the drawing of graphics as coding, too). At the beginning of the 3DTT-project I had 20 and more people all wishing to contribute (the hype as I call it). At the moment the things became strucutred and the first coding begun they disappeared like the morning mist in the raising sun.
But this is not true for everybody. Especially the originators of projects are sometimes even the opposite: they like to discuss algorithms and coding and dislike the feature stuff. This is mostly because they used to know already what they want to do.
But the anti-code-people are not useless because they can be much more creative than these who do already think by coding terms. Many ideas they do have wouldn't be discussed inside the coder's group because they are somewhat complex to implement.
But the idea-people dry up soon if there is only paper and no program to make them have new ideas. The circle closes again.
I think Mark has been split into two souls: On the one hand he agrees with me and would like to do something that brings visible results, on the other hand he is unsure about the project's details and is afraid of doing something now that he has to rewrite later. Is this guess true, Mark?

Peter

------------------
3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 in June 1999
Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon

	20-06-1999 15:27									#16
	Support Apolyton

I don't have much experience with huge projects, but I always try and make my modules into simple demos as soon as I possibly can....

It's much easier to get feedback for a working demo, although the downside is wasting time designing and coding the demo interface etc.

I believe that getting each individual section into some kind of 'demo-able' form would be optimal, if we had the time. Even a simple 'combat results calculator' which people (even those not connected to the project) could experiment with would be a huge help.

Re lawyers: If we're even thinking about them, then we're in this project for the wrong reasons, IMO. Leave them to chase their ambulances around and rip off vulnerable people.

Re documentation: Yeah, I hate it. My design notes tend to be rushed scribbles, illegible to anyone but myself. Javadoc helps to ease the process, however.

Jim

	20-06-1999 18:06									#17
	Put an end to popups!

All:

A lot of this stuff should really go into the process thread I referenced above. If you want to propose a new way to do things, or elaborate upon our brief process document, that's the place where your thoughts belong. Or are you just "people that find great fun in writing long papers about" the way things Should be here?

Martin:

I agree, upon further thought, that the '10-hours/week' position I outlined above is too inflexible. I thought I'd put that 'requirement' down somewhere when you mentioned it, but frankly I can't find it in my documentation. It certainly has not been followed by us in recruiting new members. 10/week should only be the average requirement for 'core' team members. I do believe in a lot of the benefits of open design and coding, and certainly want to harness much of their energy for Clash.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something more constrained without a huge committment, just propose it, or give a list of possibles. Several people have already entered the project in just that way. You already put some suggestions up above, but I'm not sure if these were just examples or what you really would like to do if you participated. Alternatively, say what you're good at, and what level of time committment you are willing to make, and we'll find something for you if you are interested.

BTW, I said I hated "...writing of long papers on game mechanics". Anyone who is willing to provide me a secretary for this purpose would be greatly appreciated . Obviously, I, and many here, love the design effort itself. I realize you're probably not a native english speaker, but next time before launching into a paragraph of sarcastic remarks, perhaps you should take more care to parse the statement to which you are responding?

Peter:

We are just trying to find a relatively efficient balance between design thought and coding efficiency. The process we are using (thread 70 ref. above) was proposed by me about a month ago and was accepted (with some modifications) either explicitly or implicitly by the group. Should we be flexible in its implementation, of course! Could we change it completely if desired by most members? Yes. Is the process we've chosen the best way to do it? Heck if I know.

We all know that every model we are proposing has a relatively low likelihood of making it into the final game unchanged. Many of the models are very aggressive. And who knows if they will pass the 'fun test'. But we need to ensure that we don't start with models for different game elements that are clearly incompatible. Also, because of our focus on good AI, it is necessary that each model have a character that we think allows for relatively effective writing of an AI. The only way I know of to do these things with a team, is to have each model somewhat documented before serious coding begins.

When I was working alone I spent a lot of time and effort designing and coding an economic model that I now, in retrospect, think is garbage. Opening the design process to all interested parties, and discussing the models in some detail first, will hopefully seriously reduce the likelihood of further big mistakes like this. Clearly the talking can be overdone, but so can the rush to 'get something out'. Only with Both drives IMO can this project succeed.

Jim:

I agree that mini-demos are a good way to go, providing they don't add too much to the workload. Why don't you put the suggestion in the process thread and we can see at what level we can make it 'spec' for the process.

-Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited June 20, 1999).]

	21-06-1999 01:40									#18
	Remove this text

quote: I realize you're probably not a native english speaker, but next time before launching into a paragraph of sarcastic remarks, perhaps you should take more care to parse the statement to which you are responding?

You're right. I'm not a native speaker, and I certainly do not generally read a distinction between the physical effort and the mental effort into the word writing, and therefore I thought that you were being ironic. Had you said typing then I certainly would have understood. But the really horrendous error, I made here, is that I forgot to place a smiley after the paragraph to indicate that I was not being too serious about it. Sorry. It's there now.

Anyway, forget about the lawyers, I'm going to give you a (short) list of what I think I'm good at, but I'm not going to tell you how much time I'm going to put into the project. What I can tell you, is that I'm mostly booked until the end of July, then I have "lots of time", but things may change.

In general, count me in on the following items:
- Program design and architecture.
- General, networked, and multi-threaded programming in Java.

Martin


[This message has been edited by mca (edited June 20, 1999).]

	21-06-1999 02:48									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Martin:

Oh well, I misunderstood your post too. Now I can see it... Duh. You're right the emoticon does wonders too.

Welcome to the project. If you have the time in july, please look into the architecture threads as they appear. As it gets close to your free time, and you have a better idea on your constraints, we'll try to figure out the best way to use your talents .

-Mark

	23-02-2000 15:13									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

***BUMP!***

I found this thread very interesting and I decided to bring it to the surface, for the benefit of all, specially for us who are younger here.

Some questions for everybody to consider:

What do you say about the current progress of Clash? Is I doing as it should have?

What is your opinion about the current demo release policy? Do you feel that the Clash team should go easy on the models and start serious coding?

Do you still regard Clash as a quasi - open source project? At which point do you think it should be closed - up?

What I am hoping to do is stirr up some discussion in a time when the Clash forum page has shrunk dangerously. It seems to me that there are very few people actually posting nowdays and, ecxept for a couple of threads, the place looks abandoned. Unless everybody is busy, quietly working on the next demo (which I think is not the case), it is an alarming sign.


------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

	24-02-2000 02:25									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Demos/Progress: I really think the upcoming demo5 and 6 should work on the stripped-down models as they will prob be in the final version. I really think that some models (such as character, disease, etc.) need to have a general idea of what to expect before they can progress much further. I'm not saying what will be on the next few demos will be the stripped down versions, but it will make more progress possible if they are more or less so, barring the tweaking process and models that just don't end up working.

Some of the things in the research/tech//lore whatever u want to call it model have been pretty much nailed down, barrring any major changes. There are too many to state here, but one of the things that isn't is the exact items or whatever that will be in there, basicaally the strcuture is for the most part with just fine tuning left and maybe some additonal modifiers. (The social//cultural modifiers will have to wait till we get a new person to do that new model since manurein seems to be missing....)

I think its time to start closing some holes in what can and can't be changed in the next few models so we can progress and get this thing done before I die of old age.

	24-02-2000 02:51									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Axi (and everyone else too):

current progress...

Too slow, but that's life! More on why below.

release policy... go easy on the models and start serious coding...

Your phrasing betrays a bad assumption about what is holding things up. The basic root of it is lack of programmers and programmers' time. We have by my count four basically reliable programmers. My working definition is programmers who have said they were committed and have Actually Done Something. The four are me, Darren, Garth, and Anton (rentgen). Darren and Garth are both sidelined with Real Life for perhaps a month more yet. Rentgen has just become available again, but for the moment only for 'light duty'. I have no good excuse for why I'm not coding other than that I need a break. For about half a year I was putting in about 30-40 hours a week on Clash in addition to my job. Mid-January I felt that if I kept going like that I was going to get burnt out. So I am currently goofing off and only putting in 10-20 hours a week. That leaves very little for coding. However I will rise to the challenge again when necessary. Anyway, if the coders would have been available I would have done my best to accelerate the progress on the models for demo 5, we would have cut some corners, and we would be much further along. Although possibly with missteps due to poor planning. When the coders become available again we will make hard decisions and cut the debates off on the models so we can Do Something

BTW historically I have usually thought that we had more coders than we actually did. This is because I foolishly believed it when people said they wanted to help in programming Clash, and had the requisite amount of time to commit. Most of these people just waste a lot of my time in figuring out what they could do, and getting them up to speed, and then disappear without a trace. That's why now a days I only refer to coders who appear reliable (if not always available) based on a track record. If we can get firing on 'all four cylinders' we will make rapid progress, but its not happenin' yet. Of course we could practically use 10 or more motivated programmers, but that is as yet the stuff of my dreams.

Forum contributions shrinking...
That goes in phases. I personally am less concerned about that then about getting further along the specific models targeted for demo 5: Econ, Mil, Tech, and Diplomacy.

[Mark_Everson_mode-on]
So Axi, are you interested in learning java so you can help in the coding?
[Mark_Everson_mode-off]

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited February 23, 2000).]

	24-02-2000 12:31									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Mark: Of course you need coders, I knew that. That's why, although I am tracking the Clash project closely for almost 3 months, I am reluctant of officially joining the Clash Team, since I am neither a coder nor an artist. All I can do is help with the models and that is what I have done so far, hopping like a jack-rabbit, from model to model (Graphics > Economy > Scales > Technology > ?) Clash has already too many of these guys though and I am well aware that my objective value to the project is very small. I wish I could find a way to give you essential help and not just words.

As for the java, they say that if you know C it is very easy to switch, but all I've had in programming experience is one semester course of FORTRAN 77. If I ever learn java, I will let you know.

As for F_Smith, I tried to lure him back, but...



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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

	24-02-2000 18:11									#24
	Tired of ads?

Axi:

Making the models better is Very Valuable also! I think the function you have undertaken as 'roving advocate/contributor' is quite useful. I wish we had more! Its just not what is holding us up right now. But the final product, whether it is mostly there this year, or a few years from now, will be stronger because of your and the other 'modelers' efforts. We have seen the result of many games where the programming and artistic resources were committed, but the designs were poorly thought-out. They are generally not worth playing!

	25-02-2000 10:06									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Random Comments:

Computer programming is one of those things that I always wanted to learn but never had time or reason to. Currently I can only program in TI-80 series Basic. What would be the best way to go about learning the code and about how long do you think it would take? Currently about 90% of my free time, or about three hours a day, is spent keeping up with the project and working on the tech tree and algorithms for research progress (which will be posted soon, I promise). But after the model has been fixed mathematically, I might have more time.

I think that we should put a lot of thought into the models before anything gets coded. This is especially true if programmer time is scarce.

Axi: Your role as roving questioner is useful. New ideas are needed and model people can't be allowed to forget the connections between models.

	25-02-2000 00:12									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hi, all:

Axi -- I'm sorry, but my free time is very sketchy, at best. I usually get one to two hours a day, if the wife and children don't demand that time then I can keep up with Clash. Which is barely enough time to read the posts, some days!

I am willing to help, and have done a little in the past. I'm just not the master of my own time anymore! I can not take any kind of pivotal role. I tried that once upon a time last year, and I was so unavailable that it created more havoc than help. Mark is very kind in putting up with me at all.

Richard -- I agree with Mark. Other than the switch to an object-oriented paradigm, learning Java is very easy for someone that thinks logically. Years to master, but you would be useful very quickly in coding pieces/objects.

	25-02-2000 00:58									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Funny thing: I, who am all but useless here, being a student, have usually lots of spare time. F_Smith, a skilled coder, being married and a working man, has no time to spare. What a waste for both of us! (him wasting his skill - me wasting my time)

Anyway, if, now or in the future, you have any chores I can do, other than posting here, I'm willing to relieve you.

Idea: Hey maybe we could draft a list of things to do, for people that feel useless, like me, so that they become more useful (and more devoted). I am sure that towards the end, when the modeling will stop, there will be a whole bundle of things that a less gifted person can do for Clash.
Systematic playtesting will be one, but this is waaay ahead...

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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

	25-02-2000 02:21									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

*o* Well axi, I too am a student so ur not alone. I am, however, working as the head of the tech model (with lots of help from rich), the only person character model right now (no reason to bother coding though till most of the other models are more concrete) and am a team member with the Wonders model so I have found a way to put my free time to use. I may even do some artistry (not units or anything, but pictures) in a while.

	25-02-2000 04:27									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Axi (And anyone else with too much time):

If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to do, then I have a suggestion. Only a few clicks away from this post there are forums filled with player ideas and suggestions for Civ 3. This would be a gold mine of ideas, opinions, and other good input, if anyone took the time to sort through it all. I read some of this in the past, but now I simply don't have the time. You can read through all the stuff in that forum, see what people want, and see if Clash will deliver.

Closer to home, there are many old threads from the early days of Clash (like this one). You could dig through those and see if there is anything useful that might have been forgotten about.

Or you could learn to program . . .

	25-02-2000 10:07									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Or you could learn to program . . .
----
I've tried, believe me I've tried. I can understand it with a few remarks if someone shows me it, but I can't do it myself. I'm just not of that type mindset to do programing.