06-09-2004 07:06									#1
	Do you consider this an exploit, see pic Increase the size of your Attachments

In this game I captured a few cities on an island and noticed that I was within 2 tiles of a lux, so I disbanded a captured city and moved it one tile to the NE, then rushed a temple, capturing the lux in 5 turns. The lux is separated from my city by water, as both masses are islands.

Is this trick an exploit against an undermatched AI? I don't have a problem doing this when I'm on the same landmass, but the water creates a "moral" dillema for me. I will say that I once did this when C3C came out, to snatch an ivory deposit and build Zeus. Talk about cheap!

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=18188_spanishpic.jpg

	06-09-2004 07:11									#2
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erm, trying again in non-link form

Attachment: spanish pic.jpg
This has been downloaded 394 time(s).

	06-09-2004 07:19									#3
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The AI is somewhat disadvantaged, as I imagine a human would realize what you were doing and pillage the tile rather than let you steal it in this situation. But... I'd say all's fair in the culture war. You would lose it if you stopped being allowed through their trade network.

	06-09-2004 07:25									#4
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http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Facing a moral quandary, see link above! Just discovered this group and boy to they take this all so seriously! Anyway, by their way of thinking, I think your manuver would be considered mildly dastardly. Now this is THEIR standards, now as to mine, well my whole mod is built on Dastardly principles!

So, I must excuse myself from sitting in judgement, on what I consider to be a 'routine move'! Good JOB!

	06-09-2004 07:32									#5
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I feel dirty after visiting that site

	06-09-2004 07:34									#6
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Me too, bad isn't it...

	06-09-2004 07:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep The AI is somewhat disadvantaged, as I imagine a human would realize what you were doing and pillage the tile rather than let you steal it in this situation. But... I'd say all's fair in the culture war. You would lose it if you stopped being allowed through their trade network.

Good point. I will have to go to great lengths to maintain peace with the Aztecs in that game, currently they are one of 2 civs that are comparable to me, early medieval....

tread lightly

	06-09-2004 11:23									#8
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I don't see a big problem as a city will be placed near the lux soon anyway.

	06-09-2004 12:25									#9
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quote: I will say that I once did this when C3C came out, to snatch an ivory deposit and build Zeus. Talk about cheap!

Are you even able to use it? IIRC you need a city on the island to do so.

	06-09-2004 17:17									#10
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Nah, if the Calix-blahblahblah doesn't have enough culture to hold on to the tile, you deserve it!

	06-09-2004 18:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I don't see a big problem as a city will be placed near the lux soon anyway.

Ah, but due to the AI's spacing issues, they won't. the lux tile is one square outside the city's workable tiles. They will never touch it, and since it is in my city's workable tiles, I get preference.

	06-09-2004 18:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: I will say that I once did this when C3C came out, to snatch an ivory deposit and build Zeus. Talk about cheap! Are you even able to use it? IIRC you need a city on the island to do so.

Nope, when its in a city's workable tiles, you don't need a city on the island to use it. If it was outside the city screen, then you would, I think.

	06-09-2004 19:12									#13
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quote: Nope, when its in a city's workable tiles, you don't need a city on the island to use it. If it was outside the city screen, then you would, I think.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that at least in some Ci3 version you couldn't. ( If the source is within the city screen)

	06-09-2004 19:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: Nope, when its in a city's workable tiles, you don't need a city on the island to use it. If it was outside the city screen, then you would, I think. Hmm, I'm pretty sure that at least in some Ci3 version you couldn't. ( If the source is within the city screen)

Well, IIRC, and this was a loong time ago, it was connected to a foreign city with a harbor...

And anyway, with all the changes documented and undocumented to this game, I can't remmeber the specifics of any patch.

	06-09-2004 20:45									#15
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Not really an exploit.

The AI would do the same thing (unintentionally) that you did (intentionally). It's when you do something the AI would never do (intentionally or not) that you're using an exploit.

You must have a trade connection with the green civ because you do not benefit from a resource if it's not connected to your trade network, even if it's within your cultural borders and has a Road on it.

	07-09-2004 04:03									#16
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I can't imagine that being an exploit. Are you supposed to forego placing a city at the tip of a peninsula simply to be nice to the AI? I think not. Though I would recommend shipping a settler over there to plop down on the incense and build a harbor.

	07-09-2004 05:46									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I can't imagine that being an exploit. Are you supposed to forego placing a city at the tip of a peninsula simply to be nice to the AI? I think not. Though I would recommend shipping a settler over there to plop down on the incense and build a harbor.

Well, I did abandon a city and move it a tile over to capture the incense.

	07-09-2004 14:46									#18
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That's not an exploit, you can consider it a colonial grab.

In cIV, if the varying terrain effects culture expansion it won't be an issue anymore.

	07-09-2004 19:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Well, I did abandon a city and move it a tile over to capture the incense.

Yes, but how the city got there is irrelevant, and abandoning and refounding conquered AI cities due to poor placement is a time-honored tactic anyway.

Would it be an exploit to have founded a new city there if the area were never settled?

Is it an exploit to raze and rebuild for city placement purposes?

I think these are both no answers.

	11-09-2004 14:00									#20
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When ever I ponder whether or not to use an exploit, I remind myself that the AI is cheating.

	11-09-2004 20:40									#21
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How does it the AI cheat? It knows the map and that is its only handicap. It gets a bonus at Monarch and above, but the players gets them below Regent.

Even with its bonus, it still loses.

	12-09-2004 00:56									#22
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Not an exploit, if you declare war on that AI, you'll lose connection to the luxary immedately. And if that AI goes to war with another AI, you may lose connection as well either via harbor being destroyed are the hill tile losing road.

The ivory isn't competely safe from fliping either from the AI. They are still allowed to plant a city 8-9 from the Ivory (until your culture expands again.) A city in that spot can compete for that tile.

	14-09-2004 02:44									#23
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Not an exploit. Doing something the AI is incapable of, yes, but are we to forego all strategy because the AI is dumb? [standard disclaimer]The AI is rather good, all things considered, but it's still a moron compared to humans[/standard disclaimer]

-Arrian

	14-09-2004 21:58									#24
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I don't think it's an exploit.

One was once robbed of a Iron resource by an offshore AI city in a similar way. Did I hate myself for letting that happen ...

	14-09-2004 23:22									#25
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From that "ethic" site:

quote: "RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position is an egregious exploit. The point being, the turn-based nature of the game in combination with this loophole in the rules offers a benefit way out of proportion to what even the most clever betrayal could ever hope to manage. No RoP Rapes in RBCiv Epics! This includes moving units into attack position then pulling some stunt to lead that civ to declare against you (like spy activity, or demanding they leave your territory) with the express intent of foiling the letter of this rule while still wholly pursuing the something-for-nothing spirit of this exploit. Don't go there.

you can't really demand to leave your territory when you have a RoP

	15-09-2004 00:42									#26
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They have 'attitude', bless them, of course I did not know half these exploits existed until they were so kind to list and explain them and that all one place, how nice.

	16-09-2004 02:23									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html Facing a moral quandary, see link above! Just discovered this group and boy to they take this all so seriously! Anyway, by their way of thinking, I think your manuver would be considered mildly dastardly. Now this is THEIR standards, now as to mine, well my whole mod is built on Dastardly principles! So, I must excuse myself from sitting in judgement, on what I consider to be a 'routine move'! Good JOB!

Mental note to self, never play PBEMs against these guys. I routinely employ 90% of all their 'dastardly' and 'exploitavly' tactics. I would make them explode with anger somewhere in the ancient age

	16-09-2004 02:43									#28
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Yes, I think they missed out in studying the history of the British Empire's foreign policy at 'work' ( we the US learned from them ).

To quote, Hitler in a frustrating moment early on in the war, 'If I just get away with half of what the British routinely get away with, I could win this war!'

P.S. Do not hold me too tight to the quote above, I read some book or another decades ago.

	16-09-2004 20:01									#29
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I dont think its an exploit.

	17-09-2004 19:13									#30
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Not only is it not an exploit, it actually matches what may/could happen in real life.

City development "expands" due to market forces and/or government incentives and leadership. Your city "expanded" one tile to the east. The specific mechanism is that you disbanded and used the settler to build a new city. Forget the mechanism, this result has been going on through human history as populations shift from place to place.