28-02-2000 02:35									#1
	Clash Coding Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It seems that there is a chronic lack of coders for this project. I have a suggestion that could allow coder time to be used more efficiently. This proposal is centered around the tech tree, but it could assist the coding of all of the models.

Rather than coding all of the details of the game, would it be possible to create a program that allows a non-coder to define some of the objects and their interactions?

For example, the game mechanics for the technology system have been mostly completed. The main task that remains is the creation of the actual technology tree, applications, and helper/vital tech connections.

If someone wrote a utility that allowed a non-coding person to input the technology tree, then the coders would not have to worry about the tree again. After coding the various equations and basic loops, they could give the tech tree creation utility to the tech model people and we could do all of the grunt work of entering the technologies, helper techs, applications, and all of the constants that affect the equations.

I don't know if this is feasable, but I am fairly certain that it is. If it can be done, then it would save the coders a huge amount of time in the long run. It would also allow the tech people to alter and debug the tech tree without going through a coder.

I don't know if the other models can be streamlined like this, but it should be possible. I think that the basic systems for the disease and social models have been finished. A utility could be written that allows the model leads to input the individual diseases or social conditions and effects.

If we have a collection of utilities that allow model leaders to input the raw data themselves, the production of Clash could be made much more efficient IMO.

Another benefit of this system would be that Clash would be incredibly customizable. If the utilities are included with the final project, then players would have the ability to easily create their own worlds. One of the best things about Civ 2 was that you could customize it a lot. And that customization was hindered by things that were hard-coded, like the effects that came with a certain slot on the unit or tech list. If we eliminate such hard-coded attributes, then we will be saving coder time and making the game easier to customize.

On a similar note, patches would become much easier with this system. If, for example, someone discovers some flaw in the tech tree after the game is released, then we can easily fix it by making a patch that is essentially a modpack. If we could design things so that modpacks are only one file, that would be great.

If this game is more customizable than Civ 2 and has better gameplay, then it will become a classic. I am fairly certain that it already has better gameplay.

	28-02-2000 03:13									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Richard:

What you talk about is the ideal we are striving for. However in terms of each individual model, the coder will just have to assess which is more efficient given both our short-term and long-term needs. This stuff is talked about in some detail in the scenario/mods/macros discussions, of which we have had several. If you go to that area of the web page you will see links to them all. Blade Runner, who was handling that area, assures me he is still interested in the project in general, but just has had no time. Maybe it's time for me to bug him again

By the way, the coder for the technology area is Garth Blore, who should come online again very soon.

	28-02-2000 05:26									#3
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I didn't see any of those old threads. They did mention something about creation utilities, but I didn't see any definite plans. Has anyone finished one of these utilities for anything? I haven't heard anything about them recently.

	28-02-2000 06:02									#4
	Put an end to popups!

The one I was thinking of was ICQ meeting on macro... but it is fairly rambling and I haven't checked it in detail to see if it matches my memory of what we talked about. Everything in terms of macros and scenarios is just at the very crude planning stage. I didn't mean to give any other impression about the progress, or lack thereof, in this area. Other than Darren's first shot at a new interface, and some pathfinding code written by JimC, what there is in terms of code has already been seen in action in demo 4. Why is it that you expect to see more? Most models aren't even near finalized yet, how could someone possibly be working sensibly on an editor for them? A map editor is the only thing we could be reasonably working on at this point, and there are literally tens of things that are higher priority for programming.

In terms of making progress on the comments in your first post, It would be productive for you and Garth to work out a first shot at an editor that would speed up the coding for the technology model. And look into the issues of whether this would accelerate progress in programming, or just slow things down in the short haul. Garth doesn't frequent the forums, but he is a reliable coder, and he might have time to start discussions now. I think his email is on the Clash team member list. If it's not let me know that you need it, and I can send it to you.

	28-02-2000 06:27									#5
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I figured that since you had already done four demos, you would have made some utility if that was the way you had planned on doung things. For example, a unit editor would have been used to make the armies if you had been planning in using editors from the start like some of those old threads suggested.

I didn't see any evidence of those utilities before I read the old threads, so I assumed you were planning on hard-coding a lot of things.

I also thought that the other models were mostly completed. I must be mistaken on that.

I'll contact Garth, but I don't think we should ask him to start the programming until we are fairly certain that we have the right formulas for everything. The vital/helper tech formula still needs some work, and someone might find a flaw in soemthing else.

	28-02-2000 11:15									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I know it's kind of off topic here but I feel compelled to post.

I'd like to express my opinions on the so-called lack of progress with Clash's demo 5:

1.) We are sadly lacking in programers but it's not the main force in delaying demo 5.

2.) There has been so much progress with the models that to do a "striped down" version would take an enormous amount of work.

3.) Again the fact that the models have made so much progresss that it will benifit rather than hinder demo 5.

The reason I say this, and the main reason I'm posting, is that up until now the demos have been nothing but a wargame. With demo 5 we will have tech, diplomacy, and hopefully some form of government and social effects (If I can hammer it together in time).

So what I'm saying is that regardless of how long it takes, at least it will be a semi-final game, and not just another war. I may be too democratic in opinions, but blame that on the Americans, not me!

	29-02-2000 10:39									#7
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TK:

1) I just plain disagree. FE I could have speced out the econ model enough for coding what will be in demo 5 in a weekend if we had someone to code it. The last worthless guy that said he would work on programming the Econ model never did anything and doesn't answer my emails. So that leaves me the default coder for both econ and mil, plus all the other stuff I do.

2) Stripped down model versions are so we can check the feel before large amounts of coding work are put in. I think these tests are essential, or we will end up putting limited resources into models that might well turn out needing to be scrapped. That's one reason commercial games are frequently lousy. There is no provision made for the fact that the original model may be no good due to unforseen issues or the elusive 'fun factor'.

There won't be any govt stuff in demo 5 unless several more reliable coders show up. We may be able to include very limited social model stuff, but my guess is not...

Demo 5 won't even have Any version of about half of the game models. It will be a Very Big Step in the right direction, but calling it semi-final is asking for abuse IMO.

	29-02-2000 03:07									#8
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Ouch. So I guess the sole purpose of tech in Demo 5 will be to make new military units and economic structures. We still get to test things like the application factor, so we should get some good feedback in those areas.

Garth should be able to make a tech tree creation utility by mid-March, so we would have several weeks to build the tree. I think that we should be able to go well into the Renaissance if the applications are limited to military units and province improvements. That would be a good test of tech growth.

	06-03-2000 03:32									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In my last post I was just trying to state the obvious fact that this demo will take alot more work than the 4 before, it will just take more time because there is alot more coding to do which takes alot of time. I realize now that it was very poorly written so I apologize for that.

But I was just wondering if anyone has ever actually gone out and tried to recruit programmers? I was talking with a friend at school and was telling him about the need for programmers. He mentioned that there are several programmer channels on Mirc. Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to go there and try to recruit programmers rather than us waiting for them to come here.

	06-03-2000 04:43									#10
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TK:

Yes, I have done a lot of recruitment. Perhaps not the most thorough job one could hope for, but I'm not a complete idiot . Mostly I have been posting in game-related forums. Some of the places I have posted are comp.games.development.* newsgroups, several game programming sites, Apolyton and sidgames, and probably a few other places I can't remember. At this point I am waiting before advertising further, since we have a new version of the government, social, and military models coming out in the near future. When those are actually posted, and they look like there is sufficient agreement to think about coding, I will renew my efforts.

However, advertising, and the resulting queries, don't take up a trivial amount of time. For every programmer that we have that is reliable, we go through at least 10 that are not. Each of those 10 waste several hours of my very limited time in trying to set them up before I find out that they are childish jerks who make commitments without thought of whether they can actually come through with results. Unfortunately right now there isn't someone who has a good enough knowledge of the overall code that I can delegate the coder interview and setup process to. So it's a Catch-22 situation, we need the coders, but right now I can't afford the time to go out and get them.

However, my sabbatical of goofing off is almost over. When I am back into full work mode, I will do more advertising. In the meantime, if anyone in the project comes up with someone who looks really good and Reliable I would be glad to talk to them. We also get queries from an average of a programmer a week who has run into the site, and can see how manifestly cool this project is . Unfortunately those types are only slightly more reliable than the ones I get from various newsgroups...

	06-03-2000 05:23									#11
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I see...

But I'll have my friend go to those Mirc channels anyway and ask anyone who's interested to come check out the web site. I just hope we can get someone useful out of it.

	30-04-2000 01:14									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mark:

That should explain the rather gloomy answer
I got the first time. However, as I really do not consider myself a childish jerk, here I am.

Anyway, I've read the models and played the demo, so I think I'm ready to be "set up" as a new coder. Diplomacy model seems fine, if Darren is OK with that. Otherwise, let me know where I can help.

Maybe a really good and thorough documentation would abbreviate new coders setup time. Yes, I know nobody wants to do documentation, but it can really be of help.

PS: My real name is Leandro Godón. Don't be startled by the nick.

	30-04-2000 06:45									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

An official welcome to the forums Stephen_Dedalus / Leandro. I have written to Darren, and we will figure out the best approach to getting you coding when I hear what he wants to do. I will think about further documentation...

Did I send you the code package yet (~2MB) ? I can't recall if I did or not... I need to run for now, will 'close the loop' on getting you going soon!

	01-05-2000 02:08									#14
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S_D:

Darren has agreed that you can take over as Diplomacy coder. He will neaten up and document the diplomacy stuff he's been working on as much as feasible. As soon as that's done he'll hand it over to me and you, and you can start the real work. You can use both of us for a reference as to what's going on in the existing diplomacy code while getting started. Darren knows some parts better, and I know others better. Meanwhile, Darren will concentrate on interface stuff.

Why don't you go to the current diplomacy thread, and read up on the general approach we picked, as far as we got anyway, and introduce yourself. You can find the most recent thread on the web page clash.apolyton.net

Thanks for volunteering!

	02-05-2000 00:55									#15
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OK!

	06-05-2000 17:43									#16
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Long time no see....

Just coming to the end of the worst academic year I've ever experienced; exams over in 2 weeks though so I'll have the best part of 6 weeks to due some thorough coding work.

If I remember rightly, I was working on the following:

- adding threaded execution to the A* algorithm

- tidying up / adding threads to a pathfinding precalculator / path intensity algorithm (already ~90% working - just have to figure out what I wrote all that time ago!)

- tidying up / adding threads to an influence mapping algorithm (similar story to the above)


I really haven't had the time (or motivation) during the last few months to keep up with the overall development but I've kept my modules as flexible as possible so the should fit in easily.

Small point of interest - my possible final year AI project title reads:

Evolution (using Cartesian GP) of independent control strategies for competing "teams" in a simplified civilisation game


Anyway, I've gotta run.

Jim

	07-05-2000 06:20									#17
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Hi Jim:

Sorry to hear the school year was rough...

Please add to your to-do list to document your code as much as you can stand since it was definitely documentation-lite last I looked at it.

The AI project title is excellent! Let me know what you're up to on that front, when you start on it in earnest.