07-09-2004 07:10									#1
	DAR of Betacles the Builder - Defender of Greece Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Betacles the Builder - Defender of Greece

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	07-09-2004 07:18									#2
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[b] DAR for the Greek side of the AU601 game between Rhothaerill of the Romans (booo, hisss) and Betacles of the Greeks (hurray, hooraw).

This DAR is a bit late in coming, but I have kept pretty good notes and a number of screenshots. Furthermore, the game is just getting to the real interesting part.

The DAR will comprise 4 elements:

1. A simple recounting of the game from my perspective.
2. Screenshots which help explain the situation.
3. My observations, musings, and deliberations on key moments and aspects of the game. (in italics)
4. The occasional and obligatory speech saluting the Light that is Greece and denouncing the Darkness that is Rome.

and

As I have not checked any of the other DAR's, as is a requirement of the game, I am not sure to the extent which others may ask questions or dialogue in this thread. I presume alexman knows best.

Speaking of whom, alexman - GREAT GAME!!!! Rhoth and I are having a great time exploring this scenario - and I believe we have taken different approaches to it.

{edit} Sir Ralph, sorry - did not realize you were the mastermind behind this. I should've known. Excellent set up. You are to be congratulated.

On to the DAR....

Last edited by Beta on 07-09-2004 at 08:44

	07-09-2004 07:29									#3
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4000 BC

I build on the site. First decision is the tech. Pottery (15 turns) or writing (50 turns). I pick writing.

Quickly get the wheat tile mined to produce units.

I am conscious of getting a warrior produced quickly, but more because of recent PBEM experience. (Ask Sir Ralph.) In retrospect, I should have realized that Rome would not be an immediate neighbour, and that the early warrior may not have need be a first priority.

3500 BC

3 warriors - one at home keeping the peace. Find the hut to the east (5 tiles from Athens) . Barbs.

3450 BC

I get pottery from the hut to the NW.

Now wondering if I should have sent both warriors east. West looks like coastline - where I may have had some time to explore.)

3250 BC

Contacted Egyptian warrior on the border of the great desert to the north. They have masonry, W.C., and C.B.. I have B.W. and alphabet. We make a deal of masonry for alphabet.

I think Cleopatra likes me. I certainly like her.

3050 BC

Goody hut spotted to the SE, two tiles away. Fingers are crossed.

2900 BC

Barbarians from the hut.

Last edited by Beta on 07-09-2004 at 08:25

	07-09-2004 07:45									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Speaking of whom, alexman - GREAT GAME!!!!

Those thumbs belong to Sir Ralph, actually.
I had nothing to do with the scenario creation.

Glad you're having fun, anyway. I have been following Roth's DARs with interest and I'm anxious to see your side of the story.

	07-09-2004 07:57									#5
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2900 BC

Meet Babylon. Trade alpha and masonry for C.B. and W.C and 10 gold.

This is NOT a great trade deal, but I need the techs, and I want to keep friends with the neighbours.

2800 BC

Settled Sparta 2-2-3 from Athens (to the south)

2670 BC

Got Mysticism from a hut

Zeus smiles upon the chosen people.

2590 BC

Meet the Persians. I have a reasonable tech lead. I am up on the Persians by Pottery and C.B., and on the Babs and my beloved Cleo by Mysticism.

And I have writing in 11 turns.

2550 BC

Plan for Athens is worker in 2 turns, settler 6 after that, and building a granary in Sparta. It has the flood plain tiles to work.

2470 BC

Meet the Germanics. They are a serious lot. Alphabet has clearly made the rounds and is not worth as much. But Mysticism, with Alphabet gets me the Wheel. I still have to meet the Celts and the Carthaginians.

2430 BC

Mysticism to Egypt for 20 gold.

This is done for friendship and pocket change, not to mention my enduring love for her.

2230 BC

Settler produced in Athens - will head north to the luxury tile. Meanwhile - I have 3 hoplites for home defence - and they are busy with local barbs.

2190 BC

Writing Completed.
Started philosophy; 18 turns to completion.

2110 BC

Thermopylae built on spice tile 7-7-7 from Athens.

2030 BC

A trading turn:

Trade writing to Persia for HBR and 5 gold.
Trade Mysticism and the Wheel to Babylon for I.W.
Trade HBR to Egypt for 25 gold.

At this point, I am feeling OK. The trading has worked well. I am willing to do most any trade that works for one of the AI civs, and which gets me either tech or gold.

1990 BC

So at this point:

Persia is annoyed with me - but weak militarily.
Bablyon is cautious - and average.
Egypt is polite - - and average.
The Germanics are annoyed - (I don't think they have good bowel movements) - and average.

I have 4 warriors and 3 hoplites.

I have all the first tier techs, and IW, Writing, Mysticism, and HBR. I am well into Philosophy.

No sign yet of the Carthaginians, the Celts, ...or the Romans.

Last edited by Beta on 07-09-2004 at 08:41

	07-09-2004 08:00									#6
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Greece in 1990 BC

Attachment: greece-1990bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 09-09-2004 at 06:10

	07-09-2004 08:23									#7
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1830 BC

Sparta builds granary. Philo in 5.

I have to enter Persian territory if I want to see more. I don't like to, as I know it will upset them, but exploration is key.

I also note that I am now average to the Persians militarily - and I am up to 5 warriors and 4 hoplites.

1700 BC

Looks like I am across Persian territory. I see the border of Carthage.

1675 BC

Hurray!!! First to philosophy. I take Code of Laws. I start Republic.

Sell writing to Germany for 125 gold, and Egypt () for 25 gold and a hot night in Alexandria.

1625 BC

Finally meet a Carthaginian. We are up on them in technology by Philo and Code of Laws.

I was hoping it would be more - but I am sure Rome has had a hand in this.

1575 BC

Corinth settled 9-9-9 amongst the bananas. A true city of Apolyton.

	07-09-2004 08:33									#8
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And also in 1575 BC...

Greece Meets Rome!

My warrior on a mountain is spotted by a damaged curragh - which has clearly had an adventure or two.

(the chronicles of Betacles the Builder will continue tomorrow, when Greece is left with no choice but to go to war for territory. Stay tuned.)

Attachment: greece-1575 bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 09-09-2004 at 06:13

	08-09-2004 03:51									#9
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I'm hoping that your love of Egypt transfers to the Welcome Theseus PBEM!!

* Theseus says: Go get'em Betacles... Avenge me! AVENGE MEEEEE!!!!!

	08-09-2004 04:27									#10
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Well, I was attracted to yet another bold champion of the Greeks! And of course we honor, the fallen, dead and now dishonored fellows who have fallen before (namely Theseus). So, some comely adroit advise Beta; WIN!!!!!

That said Emperor Betacles, have you any lucretive 'positions' available for up and coming nobles? I like rich surroundings, SAFETY, and lots of money and slaves. Thanks, just don't put me in charge of ditch digging like my Grandfather under 'Theseus the fallen' had to do once those despicable Roman overlords arrived! They are without mercy beware!

Oh, gee not to get negative, something nice will do like 'High Minister in charge of Currency'. Er have you discovered that yet?

Sincerely,

PS, Theseus did indeed play a great game, cheers, I am drinking a toast in your honor at Mauseleum!

Last edited by Antrine on 08-09-2004 at 04:35

	08-09-2004 04:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm hoping that your love of Egypt transfers to the Welcome Theseus PBEM!! * Theseus says: Go get'em Betacles... Avenge me! AVENGE MEEEEE!!!!!

Betacles looks at Theseus. Then he looks at Cleopatra.

Theseus, sorry bud, it has nothing to do with Egypt.

Thank you for your encouragement gentlemen. I will need it.

Antrine - to be honest, civilian jobs (unless of course you want to be a head librarian, or own a marketplace) are in short supply. If you want to command a unit of hoplites ...

:sign here >>>>>>>> _______________

	08-09-2004 05:11									#12
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Gosh Emperor Betacles, you are so generous, what will my 'family' think? I'll take the Marketplace, that way I can comfortably Pontificate at the local Pub.

Not that I not fit for the Hoplites, however it does sound like a long career off a short dock, so to speak. Is upgrading in the contract? My cousin might be interested.

	08-09-2004 05:14									#13
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Good open, Beta

This looks to be one of the more entertaining of what have been some extremely entertaining games to watch, not that I have any bias toward one player over the other due to anything in any other game.

	08-09-2004 08:23									#14
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What, you don't like bananas??!!

	08-09-2004 08:25									#15
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Totally off-topic: BTW, anyone get my movie quote?

(Where are UnO and Tube when you need'em?)

	08-09-2004 13:40									#16
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'What, you don't like bananas??!!'

Not familiar with this one...

	08-09-2004 20:57									#17
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Look at my avatar... a historic reference to the PTWDG.

	09-09-2004 04:10									#18
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The DAR continues, and as we all know, when investing in real estate, the 3 most important considerations are:

Location. Location. Location.

More on this later. Back to our fearless hero, Betacles the Builder....

1500 BC

More trading this turn. I have maintained a pretty good tech lead, and am willing to do pretty much any deal - a la GOW in the PTWDG.

Philo and CoL to Persia for MM and 100 gold
Sell HBR to Babylon for 25 gold
Sell philo to Germany for 40 gold.

This gives me 349 gold in the treasury. I am still a ways to Republic - 39 turns.

I am by philo, code of laws and map making on all civs, except Persia who are even with me.

1100 BC

Fast forward a few years. I am 13 turns to Republic. I have lost my tech lead. Most civs are even with me now, and a couple, including Persia are up by Polytheism.

My military is average to Rome and Persia and the Germanics, but strong relative to the others.

I still do NOT hace contact with the Celts.

Two more cities are in. Unfortunately, Persia has started to settle the SE coast. . I had hoped to block this - and you will note that I have two hoplites blocking further land passage. They should have been there sooner. The nation now looks like this:

Attachment: greece-1100bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 09-09-2004 at 06:15

	09-09-2004 04:20									#19
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QUOTE//Two more cities are in. Unfortunately, Persia has started to settle the SE coast. . I had hoped to block this - and you will note that I have two hoplites blocking further land passage. They should have been there sooner. The nation now looks like this://UNQUOTE

Now if I had taken, that position in charge of those Hoplites instead of my too eager yet slow cousin we wouldn't be in the fix? I just hope the Imperial Council takes more notice the rabble going down in the local taverns!

Special letter the Emperor,

Dear Emperor, it has come to my attention that we are growing intirely too slow. Why don't we have twice as many cities? And what of all the unclaimed/unpatrolled lands to the south, east and north? This is just unacceptable! Do you need more help in council dear Emperor? And while I am at it, I've heard some nasty rumors, or other civilizations having better religious choices than we have! How could you let the science minister do such a lousy job? WE NEED more RELIGIOUS choices. Polynesium or whatever it is called will allow more Gods and Goddess' and goodness knows we could use them right now!

P.S. I think our armies are too low, what do you think?

Sincerely,
Imperial servant to the barmaid

I just wanted to pass on this nondescript letter on to your perusal your highness! WE must not LOSE. And unless we way ahead I get nervous. Time flies you know! Look before you know it, Christ will get here, and then what?

Last edited by Antrine on 09-09-2004 at 04:25

	09-09-2004 04:30									#20
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750 BC

Republic completed a couple turns ago. Persia beat me to it. Damn. I was able to trade for some techs and cash. I only need currency and construction, and I reach a deal with the Romans (evil scum that they are) for Republic and Currency.

Thought long and hard about doing this - but I was out of leverage with the AI's to get more tech - and sooner or later Rhoth would be able to swing a deal. I wantde to get something in return for my long investment in Republic.

Three more cities are in, and I am aiming to claim most of this corner of the world. The Persians have expanded in the SE.

Also note that a lot of other civs units are rambling around. When they show up with settlers, this will get interesting.

Iron is being connected up north, next to Argos. Bit of a warrior building program in preparation for sword upgrades.

I am using libraries out on the perimeter for cultural expansion. They are cheaper for me than temples - and ultimately more useful.

I am still surviving with only one luxury - spices.

And I still do not have the horse resource, near Pharsolos, connected to the capital. Rhoth remarks in and around here that I seem pretty strapped for resources and luxuries. They simply have not been the priority. Expansion is. I need more settlers. And I need them fast. I am currently 40 behind Rome in the score - and it is pretty early.

But - I did invest in granaries in Athens, Sparta, and Corinth. Sparta also has acces to the food rich flood plains bordering the city.

And I have a settlement plan in idea if I can get the settlers out soon enough - and keep the AI at bay.

Here is the nation at 750 bc:

Attachment: greece-750bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 09-09-2004 at 16:29

	09-09-2004 04:47									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

BTW - question - I am resizing my maps down to a size that does not require scrolling on the posts. Does this work for you - or does it make the maps too small? If they are too small - I can replace the above with larger maps.

I will also be going to some un-zoomed maps shortly.

Please let me know.

	09-09-2004 04:52									#22
	Remove this text

Not too small until maybe you try to show individual units.

	09-09-2004 05:41									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

You still have a lot of room... this is a screenshot of my screen at 1024 of your screenshot:

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	09-09-2004 06:18									#24
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I think a resize to 1024 wide will require scrolling of the text. A resize to 800 wide requires you to scroll over so that the avatars and signatures are not available - but you can read the text without scrolling.

I will be using 800 from here on out.

	09-09-2004 06:41									#25
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450 BC

You will see from the attached map that things are indeed getting interesting.

To start with - I have decided to stay in despotism to keep the expansion going. City growth is largely the same in despotism - and that is what is key right now. A few turns of anarchy could mean a city site lost.

And the power of the granaries is starting to show its worth. Five new cities built since that last screen shot, and there is a settler enroute to the Persian border in the mountain just east of Ephesus, and there is a new settler under the warriors in Corinth.

Egypt has a settler trying to enter my territory from the north - and I have kept my dearest and beloved blocked from entering my territory.

Also - lookie here. A Roman warrior no doubt intent on engaging a hoplite to trigger a golden age while I am still in despotism. (Warriors and swords to the front!!!)

Also of note - battling with horse barbs in the west and arrrgggghhhh - Babylonian and Germanic galleys coming down the coast.

(at this point I am thinking - remember those questions on interviews that ask you about being able to manage multiple priorities....)

I have been reasonably succesful at blocking settlers coming in from the north - and Persia has stopped expanding in the south-east, but now the galleys. Note that I have swords in the area and enroute - on anticipation that this will get nasty.

This would not normally be an issue in a regular SP game - simply let them settle and then culturally assimilate them, or destroy the cities. But in this scenario - you can't do that. It becomes this bizarre dance that I have used in games before to keep settlers out of my territory. The galleys are another thing all tohgether. Not much I can do about them.

btw - at this point I am into the next era - and researching engineering. Also - I am now 46 behind Rhoth in scoring, and anchoring last place behind Cleo.

The nation in 450bc:

Attachment: greece-450bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 09-09-2004 at 16:31

	09-09-2004 07:11									#26
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430 BC

The Babylonians landed a settler. Not much choice now. I had been preparing for this eventuality by:

a) having swords in the area
b) having the northern border reasonably protected
c) ensuring that none of the Bab units roaming my territory could do much damage

I kill the Babylonian spear with my sword - and capture the settler. I also get Egypt to ally with me and go to war against the Babs. Cleo also gives me her entire treasury of 7 gold. Who says you cannot win a game of civ3 using charm.

The problem now is that the Germanic galley is coming up next - and I cannot block sufficient coastal tiles. Besides - if they are going to land - I want them to land here where my swordsmen are.

410 BC

The Germanics land. My sword kills their spear and captures their settler. Great, , I am now at war with two of my neighbours.

Also of note - at this point I am no longer in the cellar. I have passed the Egyptians.

And - I am pretty much even tech-wise. Persia is up on me by Engineering, which I get in 14 turns. And I am up on Rhoth by Monotheism.

My tech lead will disappear shortly. As will what little good will I have left in the world.

350 BC

No real serious threat from Babylon or the Germanics. I am able to easily dispatch the few warriors and spears the Babs have in my territory, and my settlement plan continues.

I am concentrating on getting cities down where they will complete the 'picture' of the civ I have planned.

I have to admit - it is somewhat more nerve wracking than a usual game of civ.

So, the fruits of my labour. Here you will see two settlers enroute to the west coast city sites, the swords which had been battling barbs in the area and ambushed the Bab and German spears and settlers, and the new slave workers hard at work improving the countryside.

Attachment: greece-350bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 17-09-2004 at 23:35

	13-09-2004 06:55									#27
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Emperor Betacles! Where are you? I hope you are not getting our ass kicked!!

P.S. I have not read the othersides DAR, however getting tempted to. But I STILL believe in GREECE! Emperor Betacles! You are the 'One'!!!!!

Last edited by Antrine on 13-09-2004 at 22:43

	15-09-2004 23:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Antrine But I STILL believe in GREECE! Emperor Betacles! You are the 'One'!!!!!

Thank you Antrine. I am trying my best to do the supporters of Greece proud.

The game continues - at a somewhat slower pace. And I need to catch up on my DAR. You are correct. So - back to our story....

	15-09-2004 23:36									#29
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270 BC

War with Rome!!

...albeit a small one.

I have avoided Rhoth's warrior for a number of turns now. By avoided, I mean preventing him from entering my territory, and from attacking a hoplite. I have done a little dance with 3 warriors, who always present a 3 tile wide front - and shuffle this way or that as needed to keep Roamin' Robby at bay.

But now I have a settler and hoplite next to him - and the settler is about to build a city there. He will get a chance to attack a hoplite and trigger my GA while in despotism, unless I want to risk defending the city with warriors - with the Roman Warrior, and the Germans around.

I also have Egypt still trying to get settlers into 'my' territory. The gigs up. One of my warriors attacks and kills Roamin' Robby and triggers a war with Rome.

Also note that the Babs and Germans had been bringing in troops. In fact - the Babs have archers - courtesy of a galley landing - on both sides of Argos. But thankfully the Babs are willing to make a peace deal. More on this in a second. Here's the situation:

Attachment: greece-270bc-r800.jpg
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Last edited by Beta on 17-09-2004 at 23:38

	16-09-2004 00:02									#30
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270 BC ...still...

The Babs offer peace to start this turn. as I mentioned above. I readily accept given the dicey situation on this front - but not before I also get the Babylonian treasury of 15 gold. Cannot swing engineering.

There is a downside to this. I have broken my military alliance with Egypt against Babylon. My ally and sweetheart, Cleopatra goes from this........

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Last edited by Beta on 16-09-2004 at 00:43