07-09-2004 09:07									#1
	I'm thinking about voting for Bush- talk me out of it Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

they were making fun of undecided voters today on Bill Maher. But I guess I'm one of them.

I'll be honest. I hate voting for democrats (girlie men). And I don't like Bush. I can't in good concience vote for Badnarik, because honestly he's not qualified to be president. So what does that leave?

Yes I know I've said I would vote for Bush in the past. Then this prison abuse scandal happened which changed my mind. But I'm kind of leaning towards Bush again. I guess you could call me a flip-flopper . In that case I should be voting for Kerry.

I usually take the stand that both candidates are equally bad. You end up getting screwed either way- they just use different methods of screwing you. With democrats you are screwed by high taxes and inefficient goverment. With republicans they support big business which screws the rest of america.

	07-09-2004 09:09									#2
	Got spare money?

You believe in civil liberties. Bush is the President of the PATRIOT Act. I think it's easy for you.

	07-09-2004 09:11									#3
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Vote for Cthulhu, then.

	07-09-2004 09:12									#4
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[/blame Bush]

I don't think Bush can be blamed for prison abuse scandals. Would probably have happened under any administration.

[blame Bush]

Go with your instincts. Then afterwards, blame Bush like all the rest of us.

	07-09-2004 09:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Winston [/blame Bush] I don't think Bush can be blamed for prison abuse scandals. Would probably have happened under any administration. [blame Bush] Go with your instincts. Then afterwards, blame Bush like all the rest of us.

There was some confusion amongst the hillbillies. Can you blame them? with Guntamano Bay Bush said we didn't need to treat those prisoners in accordance with the Geneva convention. Perhaps the soldiers felt the same way about the Iraqi prisoners. They didn't know better. Dumb rednecks.

I don't like Bush bending the rules- even if it is for a good cause. It weakens the system as a whole.

This administration seems strange. Why have so many people jumped ship? Many people have left. Including Colin Powel (possibly- he said he might come back).

	07-09-2004 09:22									#6
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Yeah well, I see the prisoner abuse as a result of command structure problems, which have hopefully now been corrected.

Nobody with a political responsibility would knowingly have allowed this to take place, look at all the goodwill lost over it.

And I have to say, unpleasant and unworthy as the incidents were, I don't regard it as the end of the world like many others do. They were humiliated, abused and coerced, yes, but some people present the whole thing as if people had been summarily executed or buried alive. It's significance in the overall picture of the campaign is vastly exaggerated IMO. And I think I know why, too...

	07-09-2004 09:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Yeah well, I see the prisoner abuse as a result of command structure problems, which have hopefully now been corrected. Nobody with a political responsibility would knowingly have allowed this to take place, look at all the goodwill lost over it. And I have to say, unpleasant and unworthy as the incidents were, I don't regard it as the end of the world like many others do. They were humiliated, abused and coerced, yes, but some people present the whole thing as if people had been summarily executed or buried alive. It's significance in the overall picture of the campaign is vastly exaggerated IMO. And I think I know why, too...

No but there was horrific neglect all the way up the command structure and very little efforts to put any kind of safeguards in place. For example putting soldiers with basically NO training in charge of whole prisons is just asking for problems.

My favorite story is in Gitmo when American soldiers were being trained to deal with prisoners. In an exercise they were told that what they believed was a prisoner was under the bed and refused to come out (it was really an American soldier who was taking part in the training exercise). They trainees beat their fellow soldier so hard while getting him out from under the bed that he got permanent brain damage and had to be discharged.

	07-09-2004 09:31									#8
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vote for a few beers on election day and then decide

	07-09-2004 09:34									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Yes I agree that people who are in charge of dealing with prisoners, be they convicts or suspects, should have better training than what we've learned was the case in Iraq and other places, and proper supervision of course. I don't think any candidate would dispute that.

And it's still a good way of avoiding prison abuse, however light, to concentrate on not being put in one to begin with.

	07-09-2004 09:40									#10
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Simple: remember everything you can about American politics, 2001-2004. Concentrate specifically on Jan. 2003-now, when the GOP had control of everything. Look at the economy, the federal budget, the war, civil liberties, domestic programs (especially No child Left Behind, which seems to be the only thing the Prez talks about -- and look at it infact, not in theory), etc.

Now ask yourself: Do I want four more years of this?

Or -- given your, um, extracurricular interests -- ask youself, "which candidate would be most likely to pursue internet censorship?"

Then decide.

	07-09-2004 09:45									#11
	Remove this text

Ah, the "Bush will ban all porn"-argument.

Grab your stack and run for the hills!

	07-09-2004 09:49									#12
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quote: guess you could call me a flip-flopper

Hmm...flip floppers for Bush!

	07-09-2004 09:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Ah, the "Bush will ban all porn"-argument. Grab your stack and run for the hills!

I didn't say he would. I just said it was a reason Diss could use.

	07-09-2004 10:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Hmm...flip floppers for Bush!

Why not? Bush campaigned AGAINST 'nation building' and we all know how that promise turned out .

	07-09-2004 10:02									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why not? Bush campaigned AGAINST 'nation building' and we all know how that promise turned out .

Be fair, Imran; he kept that promise. After all, can you name a nation he's built?

	07-09-2004 10:09									#16
	Remove this text

He once built a fort out of pillows while he was hopped up on cocaine and advil. He "wanted to keep the pixies out" or something along those lines...

	07-09-2004 10:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You believe in civil liberties. Bush is the President of the PATRIOT Act. I think it's easy for you.

Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves.

I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond.

	07-09-2004 10:19									#18
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Here's one...they (the Feds) don't need any legal verification (warrant, etc) to wiretap your house. Privacy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "restricting the liberty of others" and has everything to do with protecting your own. My phone conversations are my property alone, no one else's except the person on the opposite end, and CERTAINLY NOT a government who has one more tool towards full knowledge of all its citizens at all times.

	07-09-2004 10:20									#19
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Soon-to-be Head of the US Intelligence Center Porter Goss has repeatedly given approval for Big Brother tactics.

	07-09-2004 10:21									#20
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A vote for Bush is a vote for China.

	07-09-2004 10:22									#21
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Diss, you're not alone. I, too, am pretty undecided, and I've flip-flopped on which guy is better repeatedly. OMFG teh FLIP FLOP!

	07-09-2004 10:25									#22
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quote: Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves. I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond.

Privacy is a major civil liberty and saying that it isn't means that you don't understand the first thing about civil liberties. You the right to life is all about restricting the liberty of others to kill, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a 'liberty' that we have.

For an evaluation of how the PATRIOT Act violates our civil rights, chief among them being our privacy:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Saf...?ID=12263&c=206

That is an good critique on the PATRIOT Act's talking away our civil liberties.

	07-09-2004 10:26									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

When did you become a communist, Imran?

	07-09-2004 10:27									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

[blatant incendinary rightwing scaremongering]

Your past posst seem to indicate that you are not a feminist, Diss. However, John Kerry is. Himself henpecked to a wealthier and more forceful wife, John Kerry will use his power to advance the agenda of the hardline feminists.

John Kerry states on his website that he wishes to close the pay gap, the whole women supposedly earning 77 cents for every dollar a man earns deal. Never mind that that is mostly due to different career choices and that the gap can close naturally due to women doing bettering in education then men, John Kerry would invoke government's hand to try to intervene. And we can see with Affirmative Action that when the government creates discriminatory programs they can be rather hard to get rid of. If John Kerry gets elected, an employer might have to give a promotion to a women instead of you, or give a contract to a women instead of you, to avoid brining down the wrath of the federal government.

Now, granted, John Kerry is not going to talk about radical feminism on the campaign trail. But the radical feminists are a key part of the democratic coalition, and if Kerry is elected he will owe them, and the people he brings to Washington will sympathize with him. The types of feminists who don't believe in due process for rape cases, who support feminist judges who take father's children away in divorce cases and leave the fathers with impovershing child support/alimony, and who would see your romantic troubles as a feminine triumph with females being able to frustrate your man, will have greater acsess to Washington under a Kerry administration.

Also consider the types of judges Kerry would appoint. He would appoint activist feminist judges who would use their judicial powers to legislate from the bench for greater power for women. If Due process is violated in a rape or sexual harrasment case, I don't think any Kerry appointee would correct the error. And don't assume your porn would be safe under a liberal administartion either; Remember Tipper Gore was a huge anti-porn crusader. Feminists oppose porn because they feel it is degrading to women, feminist kerry appointees in the courts and in the regulatory agencies would surely oppose them.

Just remember, a vote for Kerry is a vote for you to become a second class citizen.

[/blatant incendinary rightwing scaremongering]

	07-09-2004 10:27									#25
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quote: When did you become a communist, Imran?

When the Lord God Putin came and spoke to me and told me what I should pursue .

	07-09-2004 10:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Here's one...they (the Feds) don't need any legal verification (warrant, etc) to wiretap your house. Privacy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "restricting the liberty of others" and has everything to do with protecting your own. My phone conversations are my property alone, no one else's except the person on the opposite end, and CERTAINLY NOT a government who has one more tool towards full knowledge of all its citizens at all times.

Ah I see the patriot act only violates our privacy. We want the governement to catch the bad guys without the bother of letting the government actually have information about the bad guys. Great! Why is more ignorance for the government regarded as a good thing? And as for your phone calls being your property I guess that means that the IRS also violates our civil liberties because it steals plenty of property that way. At least when the government 'steals' my phone calls I still get to keep my phone call, whereas when the government steals my paycheck I'm just SOL.

Why in the hell are people so sensitive about the government eavesdropping on them? Are they all that bashful? How much time do you think the government will want to waste eavesdropping on you before it realizes it's wasting it's time and that you're probably not a terrorist? I can hardly believe that any innocent person could believe that it's more important to never encounter eavesdropping than it is to never encounter terrorists.

People seem to think we can win a war on terrorism by caving in to the terrorists (if we stop doing bad things they will all be nice to us because terrorists only make reasonable demands), or they think we can win the war on terrorism by catching the terrorists after their terract and having a jury convict them (because of course terrorists would never resort to untracable attacks like a suicide attack, they aren't that crazy right?) How the ****ing hell are we supposed to win this war if we want to place special blinders on the government and tell it to go 'figure out' who the terrorists are? Do they think this is a game of 20 questions? the terrorists don't want to be found and yet everybody assumes that we will catch every major damaging terrorist plot in advance through lucky guesses and terrorist **** ups.


What the ****ing hell is everybody trying to hide gawdamnit? Why is privacy >>>>>>>> security? Damn I'm sick of this.

	07-09-2004 10:38									#27
	Got spare money?

I'm going to assume thats a troll and won't respond

	07-09-2004 10:41									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I'm going to assume thats a troll and won't respond

Me too.. no one can be that dumb or Fascist (these days) can they? Saying we should give up our privacy rights so we can catch some terrorists, what does he think this is, Communist China?

	07-09-2004 10:42									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

中国
美国

	07-09-2004 10:43									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves. I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond. Privacy is a major civil liberty and saying that it isn't means that you don't understand the first thing about civil liberties. You the right to life is all about restricting the liberty of others to kill, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a 'liberty' that we have. For an evaluation of how the PATRIOT Act violates our civil rights, chief among them being our privacy: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Saf...?ID=12263&c=206 That is an good critique on the PATRIOT Act's talking away our civil liberties.

Imran that whole damn page is devoted entirely to discussion of surveillance powers granted to the government by the patriot act. How in the hell is it bad for the government to have improved surveillance capabilities. I want the government to leave innocent people alone and jail criminals. How is improved surveillance not an obvious way to better accomplish this? And if privacy is an important civil right then why not cable TV or medical coverage or internet access or whatever the hell else people like to have? what does this make civil rights into if not an arbitrary wish list that has nothing whatsoever to do with basic human rights? I get so sick of people acting as if something must be sacred because they keep saying it is, no matter how self destructive such values may be. Don't people agree that it's important that innocent people not be jailed?