07-09-2004 15:51									#1
	C3C - No Musketman Support Apolyton

I need some help

playing C3C as netherlands.

I got strategic recources - Saltpeter, Iron and Horses.

There is no musketman in the building list.

Civilopedia says: Musketman upgrades to Swiss Mercenary and Swiss mercenary
upgrades to Rifleman ???

Just got Military Tradition and Cavalry in the building list.

What happened to the Musketman ? Am I missing something ?

Thanks

	07-09-2004 17:28									#2
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Can you build Swiss Mercenaries? They're 1/4/1 for 30 Shields, while Musketmen are 2/4/1 for 60 Shields. Rarely does that extra Attack point come into play, so Swiss Mercs are quite the bargain.

The only way for you to build Musketmen is to cut off Iron, which Swiss Mercs. require. You might want to do this if you're really worried about upgrade costs for Riflemen or Infantry. I would still not recommend it.

	07-09-2004 18:25									#3
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Thanks

So does a Swiss Mercenary outranks the Musketman ?

Is it because the Swiss Mercenary is the netherlands special unit ?

	07-09-2004 20:00									#4
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No it does not out rank it and yes being a UU you are allowed to build it even after its replacement is available and you have not had your GA.

You need to have saltpetter in the resource box of the city you want to build muskets in. Having it in your empire is not enough, it must be connect to the trade route or that city directly.

	07-09-2004 20:35									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Since you're the Dutch you can't build Muskets. Civ 3 is structured so that units which upgrade to other units aren't available. Since the Musket upgrades to the SM you can't build Muskets for the reason that Dominae outlined.

This is also the case with other UUs, like the Numidian Mercenary, which prevents the Carthaginians from building any Pikemen.

	07-09-2004 21:36									#6
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This might bring up an interesting situation:
Musketmen require Saltpeter.

Swiss Mercenary requires Iron.

Musketmen upgrade to Swiss Merchanary dispite SM being cheaper.

So if a player without Iron but with Saltpeter builds some Musketmen and then finds and connects Iron, does he get cash by upgrading Musketmen to SMs???

And would finishing Leos prior to those updates actually be a bad thing by cuting in half the negative upgrade amount?

	07-09-2004 22:06									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

'Upgrading' your Musketmen to Swiss Mercs is a very bad idea.

Not only do you lose the extra attack strength, but you also lose value towards your eventual Rifleman upgrade. And you do not get cash from the upgrade to a cheaper unit (as an example, remember the PTW Gallic Swordsman upgrade to cheaper Med. Inf).

Interesting scenario though.

	08-09-2004 00:27									#8
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I don't get why musketmen should upgrade to swiss mercenaries. Seems a waste and something that should be changed (yes, and anyone can do it on the editor).

	08-09-2004 02:42									#9
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Well, the way it is now is much better than having Swiss Mercs upgrade to Musketmen, or even removing them from the upgrade chain, which are the two alternatives.

	08-09-2004 03:04									#10
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Or have them upgrade to riflemen.

	08-09-2004 05:22									#11
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But that's what they upgrade to now.

	14-09-2004 14:34									#12
	Disconnected Iron, got Musketman Remove this text

Thanks for your help

Playing C3C as netherlands.

I got strategic recources - Saltpeter, Iron in all of my cities.

I get to build Swiss Mercenary and NO Musketman !!!

I've disconnected one of my cities, the one with the second Saltpeter recource
from the rest of my empir so only Saltpeter appears in it's strategic recources.

Now I get to build Musketman in that city only.


Civilopedia says: Musketman upgrades to Swiss Mercenary and Swiss mercenary
upgrades to Rifleman ???

Iron is researched early in the game (Swordsman), then Feudalism (Swiss Mercenary),
gunpowder is researched much later, so what is going on ?

Thanks

	14-09-2004 16:25									#13
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I don't get what is so difficult to understand here.

Why on Earth should a Dutch player ever wish to build Musketman (2.4.1 @ 60sp) instead of Swissies (1.4.1 @ 30sp)?

The developers recognized that. Now, there are two ways to handle that due to the way upgrade chains work:
1) Remove Musketman from the Netherlands, so SMs directly upgrade to Rifles (that's the way Immortals work). Problem is, when you're stuck without Iron, but have Saltpeter, you really want Muskets...
2) The seemingly weird Pike->Musket->Musketeer->SM->Rifle chain. In fact, this solution is extremely smart, not stupid.

	14-09-2004 21:06									#14
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It is a device they used to make things work out. Otherwise they would have had to make a very convuluted upgrade path and I do not see how it would have worked.

This makes it cover all the contigencies and is simple (sort of).