08-09-2004 13:14									#91
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quote: One can "fight" the military-industrial complex by boycotting products, by using civilian disobediance, or simply by voting for someone who isn't a lapdog of theirs. And it is generally unwise to use weapons directly against them anyway, since they have the bigger guns.

True, but much of their rhetoric sounds suspiciously like the Communists, particularly with respect to supporting all opposition to the US military-industrial complex.

I guess this is one of the reasons very few Mennonites become embroiled in politics, since they seem to have plenty of tensions with the state.

Rather than seeing a larger state, and the monies no longer invested in the military go to social programmes, I would be more supportive of just giving that money back to the people.

	08-09-2004 13:20									#92
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It's kind of unfair to include noncombat deaths in the total since, presumably, car accidents and diseases would still occur even if we weren't in Iraq. Also it seems a bit wrong to include noncombat deaths in Kuwait in the "Iraq Death Toll".

	08-09-2004 13:29									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's kind of unfair to include noncombat deaths in the total since, presumably, car accidents and diseases would still occur even if we weren't in Iraq. Also it seems a bit wrong to include noncombat deaths in Kuwait in the "Iraq Death Toll".

Well according to Drake Tungsten's link there's been 976 combat deaths, so pretty much same difference.

	08-09-2004 13:38									#94
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quote: It's kind of unfair to include noncombat deaths in the total since, presumably, car accidents and diseases would still occur even if we weren't in Iraq. Also it seems a bit wrong to include noncombat deaths in Kuwait in the "Iraq Death Toll".

I agree with you, but I can see why they did it. The media had been preparing for the 1000th death for a long time and they wanted to get there as soon as possible.

	08-09-2004 18:46									#95
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"I agree with you, but I can see why they did it. The media had been preparing for the 1000th death for a long time and they wanted to get there as soon as possible."

What a pack of grade A *******s. (The media)

To those who replied to my posts...I should have never made them. One thing I've learned over the years is that there is no point in trying to change anyone's opinion around here so generally it's better to just have a bit of fun.

If Iraq does go bad on us I do have a rather strange solution. Give all of it to the Turks to erm, manage, except for the Kurdish area which, combined with currently Turkish Kurd areas, would form their own nation. This would be a thorn in Iran's side because of their Kurdish areas. The Turks would take the deal because of the southern oil fields while the Kurds would get the northern fields.

Another alternative would be to pull the troops out of the revolting major cities and let em go wacko while we control what goes in and out until they get tired of the insanity. They could never put together true military contest for our forces sitting safely in the countryside, and we would never let them threaten anyone else...

	08-09-2004 23:01									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Commies are anti-war?

Most Libertarians are.

... so is Badnarik.

	09-09-2004 01:08									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer That was then, this is now. everyone, includeing Kerry, believed that Saddam had WMD. When they couldn't be found the left claimed that the Bush administration would fabricate such a find, remember that? Of course they didn't, but it just shows the culture of distrust that simply hates those who are leading the US in this great effort. So, everyone was wrong. The guy that gassed his own people had given up the WMD, and not showed the world. He brought this on himself, and it's done. Now it's time to build a nation so lets do it and quit *****ing about it.

Before the invasion, Bush repeatedly said, on several occasions, that he had not decided to go to war, and that if Iraq gave up the WMD's he believed were there, then Iraq would not be invaded.
Lets repeat that: IF IRAQ HAD SURRENDERED ITS WMDS (which did not exists, but this is a hypothetical)THEN BUSH WOULD NOT HAVE INVADED. I am sorry, but to me that means that the cause of the war is not freeing the Iraqi people , but getting rid of a threat.

Was Bush lying when he said that if the threat of Iraq was removed by Saddam, he would not attack, and hence leave Saddam and his dictatorship in power?

	09-09-2004 02:10									#98
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GePap, please provide cites.

In actuality it ended up being codified in UN1441 to include not only hand over of WMD's but all the ancillary provisions therein including proper documentation of disposal etc. to prove that they weren't already handed over to third parties/nations.

To your arguement tho' his rational for the action ended up being a huge spin game after no apparent WMD's were found initially. (Some 20+ shells were eventually found not that I find them as offensive a WMD as other alternatives but thats neither here no there).

Point being NOW both candidates have spinned/flip/flopped as both were on record saying THEN the impending threat and existance of WMD's were real and required regime change. Both are on record NOW however saying that knowing what they know today they still would have invaded Iraq.

So your question can equally apply to Sen. Kerry.

	09-09-2004 02:12									#99
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According to Bob Graham, forces were already being redirected in Feb 2002 to attack Iraq.

	09-09-2004 02:21									#100
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We've covered that many times before. Even if true, a threat of force is not use thereof.

	09-09-2004 02:22									#101
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No, they don't apply equally to Kerry, since Kerry did not make the decision to go to war. He signed a resolution saying the congress would back the president's decision if the president felt war was necessary. he did not authorize the strike, nor set the timeline, nor conduct the diplomacy, nor finalize the war plans, so forth and so on, and so on, and so on.

It is impossible to equate the actions of any senator to those of the president in this regard.

	09-09-2004 02:24									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe We've covered that many times before. Even if true, a threat of force is not use thereof.

It does show that Bush was taking the heat off bin Laden well before we thought.

	09-09-2004 02:25									#103
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Yet posed the question as Presidential candidate thus implying the absolutely implausible idea that he could be president , he stated that knowing what he knows today would have invaded Iraq.

So what we are doing is comparing the decision making processes of a Presidential wannabe with those of the sitting dunce.

	09-09-2004 02:27									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It does show that Bush was taking the heat off bin Laden well before we thought.

Only if those forces were withdrawn from Afghanistan circa Feb 2002.

	09-09-2004 02:36									#105
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I am looking for the exact wording, but here is an old story from early 2003 to set the mood:

http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews...ution.php?nnn=2

In essence, Bush still syaing no decision made, and that Saddam had the choice to do as the UN resolutions stated. I pick this story becuase it is a fair example of that day. I point to the relative importance of the "threat angle" vs. the "liberation angle". I also point to the idea that Saddam had a choice in whether we invaded or not- of course, Bush is saying he, not the UN, would be the arbitrer of judging complience, which of course is a power he does not nor ever did have.

	09-09-2004 02:37									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Only if those forces were withdrawn from Afghanistan circa Feb 2002.

According to Graham, yes that's the case.

	09-09-2004 02:38									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Yet posed the question as Presidential candidate thus implying the absolutely implausible idea that he could be president , he stated that knowing what he knows today would have invaded Iraq. So what we are doing is comparing the decision making processes of a Presidential wannabe with those of the sitting dunce.

Of course, even if we had invaded Iraq with months of greater preparation for the day after the fall of the Baath regime, the situation in Iraq would be very different.

I want to kick Bush out not cause he invaded- but cause he invaded and screwed up royaly.

	09-09-2004 03:11									#108
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, obviously we have been there more than a year, and yet we have not had even as many dead as we had in the 8 years of our involvement in Vietnam! Not to compare to our loses in the Civil War or WW2! So 1000 dead is a meaningless number!

1000 dead wouldn't be a meaningless number if just one of them was your relative/friend/or self.

	09-09-2004 03:22									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Another alternative would be to pull the troops out of the revolting major cities and let em go wacko while we control what goes in and out until they get tired of the insanity. They could never put together true military contest for our forces sitting safely in the countryside, and we would never let them threaten anyone else...

This would be a costly and non rewarding alternative.
Actually if they did that, this would show for once that iraq is not about making money.
But the way it is, they try to stabilize the country and put an end to the war as soon as possible. Restoring order and building the ground for U.S. (and most probably european as well) companies to extract the green gold. Nobody would be interested in oil if it doesn't convert to lots of greenbacks.

Don't think you can argue that you'd have so many options to do, because you can really only try to restore peace as fast as possible. All your "alternatives" are and will always be pure hypothetical and just exist to satisfy your mind and cloud it to believe you have a choice...

	09-09-2004 03:43									#110
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http://icasualties.org/oif/

If you look at the relative charts you will see that the death toll has stepped up these last months. We're up for another peak in the violence, which comes at a much closer interval than the one between the April peak and the November peak. Violence is supposed to peak in November again (because of the US elections) but it is too high already.

Also think that during the last months, the attention of militants has turned to kidnappings and executions of foreign civilians.

Finally, when do you expect the violence to die off? There is no trend that shows any reasonable exit form the violence, so, for how long is this going to keep going? With 2,11 dead per day, in the first 10 years there will be a total of 7.500 dead US soldiers. Now this nuber will either be surpassed, so we'll have another Vietnam or it will be lower than that, so USA "wins", but at what cost? How will history judge this?

	09-09-2004 03:45									#111
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I expect the violence to simmer down once the Iraqi government gets an upper hand. I see that in a few months time. I do not believe there will be 7,500 dead US soldiers for the first ten years because I do not believe we will be there that long. This isn't another Vietnam (that's a bullshit statement because all the conditions are different).

	09-09-2004 05:21									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I would be more supportive of just giving that money back to the people.

And this is exactly what social programmes do

	09-09-2004 05:56									#113
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Oh, on the "issue" of including fatalities from accidents and disease- well, we do for every single previous conflict, why wound't we for this one? When we say 600,000 Americans died during the civil war we rarely point out that probalby more than half of those died from typhoid, disentary, TB and whatever other nasty bugs swept throught the military camps.

	09-09-2004 06:00									#114
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"Only 759" are combat deaths, according to The News Hour with Jim Leher, tonight. The two experts, a former general and a colonel, both said the situation is getting out of control in Iraq.

Apparently in Samara, the Ba'athists and the Islamists have created a local alliance. Despite what the Administration would have you believe, this is new. Such alliances are expected to spread to other rebel controled cities like Falluja and Ramadi and elsewhere. Not only this, but Ba'athist elements are now showing widespread coordination.

Bush has totally fubared Iraq.

	09-09-2004 06:27									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I think that you liberals and leftists should stop celebrating the death of soldiers, and accept the fact that you were wrong about Iraq.

Damn you got me there -- because I'm a liberal, I lack any sense of decency and respect for other human beings' lives.


So I will be celebrating the grief and losses of the families and friends who have had someone they loved and cared about killed in Iraq.

	09-09-2004 06:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara "Only 759" are combat deaths, according to The News Hour with Jim Leher, tonight. The two experts, a former general and a colonel, both said the situation is getting out of control in Iraq.

Are they in Iraq right now? Are they on the ground? If not, they wouldn't know a damn thing.

[quoe]Apparently in Samara, the Ba'athists and the Islamists have created a local alliance.[/quote]

This already has happened in the past. It isn't new.

You are just acting so damn ridiculous.

	09-09-2004 06:39									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You are just acting so damn ridiculous.

Stick to the topic... AND NOT THE POSTERS. You will not be warned again... just restricted.

	09-09-2004 06:40									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Stick to the topic... AND NOT THE POSTERS. You will not be warned again... just restricted.

Then tell people to stop attacking me around here.

	09-09-2004 06:41									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Then tell people to stop attacking me around here.

I've been doing that as well... and one person has already been restricted tonight.

However, in most cases... YOU START IT.

So... STOP IT. or be restricted.

	09-09-2004 06:47									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Then tell people to stop attacking me around here.

I didn't attack you, Giancarlo. Despite the fact we are diametricly opposed on most issues, I like you.